# What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848 "2019-02-02T18:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/161 "2019-02-04T17:17:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Here’s a clip of [Father Ted](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC3a9T0xsIU)showing three priests blacked-up as The Three Degrees plus other characters all wearing costumes, wigs and make-up in order to change their complexion. > > Are any of them acceptable? if so, which ones and how so?, if not, which ones and why not? Bear in mind that the humor of _Father Ted_ is heavily driven by priests doing deeply inappropriate things. They even lampshaded it in one episode. > [@Johanna](#): > > My grandson will be thrilled to know that, thanks! The film _Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse_ is highly recommended although be warned that viewers will be overstimulated by the end of the opening credits. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/162 "2019-02-04T18:11:37Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Sounds like an Obama mask would probably not cause a scene but a polo and khakis and a visor and golf club and brown skin for tiger woods likely would cause problems… But without the blackface it’s just a Donald Trump costume.😃 The USA is a wonderful place to live. I have all sorts of freedoms, both large and small. I can move to anywhere in the country that I want. I am free to pursue any career that I want. I can associate with anyone that I want. I am also basically a kind and empathetic person. If I become aware that my first choice of Halloween costume is something that a lot of my fellow citizens might find hurtful, I’ll pick another costume. I don’t need to analyze the details. I don’t need to complain that I’m being censored or that my freedoms are being abridged. I don’t need a history lesson. It just doesn’t rise to that level of importance. It’s an incredibly minor moment of self-censorship borne of basic human kindness, akin to deciding not to lecture a total stranger on their weight or personal appearance. So when I see someone protesting strongly the idea of self-censoring their Halloween costume I think something else is going on. It indicates to me that they have, at best, an indifference to inflicting pain on certain members of their community, if not an actual desire to inflict that hurt on their fellow citizens. Because my “right” to wear any Halloween costume I want is incredibly unimportant to me. It would be different if it were my choice of career or partners that offended other members of my community. But it doesn’t come close to rising to that level. Now some of you might be tempted to respond…”You are a liberal hypocrite, Ann. You constantly insult Trump and his followers on Twitter. Some people might find your use of the#fat#microbic#orangeasshole#daughterfucker#treason#federalprison hashtags very offensive and hateful.” To which I will say, “Hell Yes!”. I hate that Donald Trump asshole and my freedom to express that is very important to me. Fuck his feelings and fuck the feelings of his supporters. I’m not necessarily proud of this but I will be honest about it. Now, if the people that feel they really need the freedom to wear offensive Halloween costumes would be equally honest about the motives behind their strong need to exercise this freedom, then we can have an honest discussion. But as long as they hide behind the disingenuous “I just need to fully understand why those people find it offensive, why should their feelings abridge my rights, how come Famous Actor X could do it in Big Movie Y but I can’t…, I need to understand the history” there will not be a truly honest discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/163 "2019-02-04T18:18:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Probably because we are all exposed to plenty of real examples of white women. > > The same is not true for racial minorities. > > Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/164 "2019-02-04T18:20:58Z")
Freaking autocorrect ruined my best line. #microdick Although he is a toxic microbe ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/165 "2019-02-04T18:42:54Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > But without the blackface it’s just a Donald Trump costume.😃 > The USA is a wonderful place to live. I have all sorts of freedoms, both large and small. > > I can move to anywhere in the country that I want. I am free to pursue any career that I want. I can associate with anyone that I want. > > I am also basically a kind and empathetic person. If I become aware that my first choice of Halloween costume is something that a lot of my fellow citizens might find hurtful, I’ll pick another costume. I don’t need to analyze the details. I don’t need to complain that I’m being censored or that my freedoms are being abridged. I don’t need a history lesson. It just doesn’t rise to that level of importance. It’s an incredibly minor moment of self-censorship borne of basic human kindness, akin to deciding not to lecture a total stranger on their weight or personal appearance. > > So when I see someone protesting strongly the idea of self-censoring their Halloween costume I think something else is going on. It indicates to me that they have, at best, an indifference to inflicting pain on certain members of their community, if not an actual desire to inflict that hurt on their fellow citizens. Because my “right” to wear any Halloween costume I want is incredibly unimportant to me. It would be different if it were my choice of career or partners that offended other members of my community. But it doesn’t come close to rising to that level. > > Now some of you might be tempted to respond…”You are a liberal hypocrite, Ann. You constantly insult Trump and his followers on Twitter. Some people might find your use of the#fat#microbic#orangeasshole#daughterfucker#treason#federalprison hashtags very offensive and hateful.” > > To which I will say, “Hell Yes!”. I hate that Donald Trump asshole and my freedom to express that is very important to me. Fuck his feelings and fuck the feelings of his supporters. I’m not necessarily proud of this but I will be honest about it. > > Now, if the people that feel they really need the freedom to wear offensive Halloween costumes would be equally honest about the motives behind their strong need to exercise this freedom, then we can have an honest discussion. But as long as they hide behind the disingenuous “I just need to fully understand why those people find it offensive, why should their feelings abridge my rights, how come Famous Actor X could do it in Big Movie Y but I can’t…, I need to understand the history” there will not be a truly honest discussion. That’s all well and good if you’re ready to accept whatever you’re told. In that case you can’t wear wigs outside your ethnic group or play a video game character outside your ethnic group because that offends people. It’s also convenient if you happen to be someone who naturally understands social interaction as opposed to someone who had to be tutored for years to understand what facial expressions mean. Thanks for being dismissive though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/166 "2019-02-04T19:02:45Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Ive also seen medeival movies with knights that were black and admittedly it struck me about the same as a movie with white Zulu warriors would have. Both would easily qualify as cultural appropriation if you’re stuck on that buzzword. Not at all. Because there were [Black](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriaen) and other [POC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palamedes_(Arthurian_legend)) Knights in period fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/167 "2019-02-04T19:02:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Bear in mind that the humor of _Father Ted_ is heavily driven by priests doing deeply inappropriate things. but regardless, that is still people putting on black make-up in order to represent black people. Therefore we can agree it is not inherently racist to do so. > [@](#): > > They even\*\* lampshaded \*\*it in one episode. Eh? that’s a bit “Roger Irrelevant” ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/168 "2019-02-04T19:03:29Z")
Without the history, and seeing it around so many times it would never occur to me why any attempt to look like someone else, typically taken as flattery would be offensive. So sorting out what is sensationalism and what is actual real world concensus is actually kind of important in a number of ways. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/169 "2019-02-04T19:06:27Z")
Anyone else get the sense the OP isn’t quite as puzzled as they initially stated? Seems to me they already know which side of the argument they’re coming down on. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/170 "2019-02-04T19:08:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not at all. Because there were [Black](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriaen) and other [POC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palamedes_(Arthurian_legend)) Knights in period fiction. Did not know that. Although the one I’m thinking of had entire armies. Still that kinda cool. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/171 "2019-02-04T19:10:52Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Did not know that. Although the one I’m thinking of had entire armies. What movie is that? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/172 "2019-02-04T19:11:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Anyone else get the sense the OP isn’t quite as puzzled as they initially stated? Seems to me they already know which side of the argument they’re coming down on. There’s not really a side. As I’m actually trying to determine the dividing line. Though I think I’ve come to a conclusion. Which is basically skin paint bad. The rest is sensationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/173 "2019-02-04T19:12:14Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > That’s all well and good if you’re ready to accept whatever you’re told. > > In that case you can’t wear wigs outside your ethnic group or play a video game character outside your ethnic group because that offends people. > > It’s also convenient if you happen to be someone who naturally understands social interaction as opposed to someone who had to be tutored for years to understand what facial expressions mean. > > Thanks for being dismissive though. You’re welcome? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/174 "2019-02-04T19:15:07Z")
I wanna say King Arthur legend of the sword… ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/175 "2019-02-04T19:53:07Z")
My question is, how far removed from blackface do you have to be to be disqualified from political office? (sans a profuse apology) Is the entire cast and crew of Tropic Thunder disqualified from public office, or just Robert Downey Jr? How about if you saw it, and enjoyed it? (a past facebook post dug up proving so). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/176 "2019-02-04T20:16:22Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I wanna say King Arthur legend of the sword… You realise a movie with a giant magic snake is not exactly a period piece, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/177 "2019-02-04T20:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Snowboarder Bo** : > > If a person is portraying Lucille Ball, and they make their hair curly and red, well, isn’t that Lucille Ball’s natural hair “style”? Bad example, because no, that’s not her natural hair. As an aside, the comic strip _Sally Forth_ recently had both Sally and the mother of one of Hillary’s friends cosplaying for a con, as two characters from their favorite (fictitious) 80s cartoon. We later see an excerpt from the cartoon, and it turns out that the character cosplayed by Sally (who is white) was black, while the character cosplayed by the other mom (who’s black) was white. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/178 "2019-02-04T20:42:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Re “dressing up” as a black person. > > By browning up your skin to play a character who just happens to be black, you’re likening their skin color to a costume. That’s not KKK racist, but it is still incredibly stupid. > > Like, if I were going to cosplay David Bowie, I would go all glam rock. I’d get a red mullet wig and paint a big zigzag across my face and squeeze into some crazy looking tight-ass pants and some boots and then sling a guitar around my neck. Boom, I’m David Bowie. Slapping some white paint on my face would make me look stupid. I’d be basically telling everyone that I think white skin is David Bowie’s signature, the thing that makes him special and recognizable. > > That said, I don’t think cosplaying a black person is the same thing as doing “blackface”. There’s a difference between applying make-up on your face in a careful, deliberate manner to simulate someone’s _real_ complexion and slapping on some black shoe polish. Michael Jackson did not have black skin. He had a medium brown complexion. If your costume is pretty much indistinguishable from what you’d find in a minstrel show, then yeah, you’re gonna get a lot of side eye. This is true today and it would have been true in 1984 as well. > > Dan Ackroyd did brownface in “Trading Places” and didn’t catch any flak for it. Neither did Gene Wilder, Billy Crystal, or Robert Downey Jr. This is the most compelling, relatable explanation I’ve read on this subject; thank you. I’ve always understood why what we usually think of as blackface is abhorrent but I still wasn’t quite on board with vilifying people who are using it to portray a particular person- the first thing that came to mind is Julianne Hough as Suzanne from Orange is the New Black. Now I get it. I still think many people are doing or defending it out of honest ignorance but if I can change my view, so possibly can they. Would you perhaps consider going on tour?😛 ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/179 "2019-02-04T20:44:39Z")
As it got mentioned in the OP but mostly dropped in the thread, I want to throw out a few comments about “digital blackface.” When people first threw that term around in the past year or so, I thought it was goofy or knee-jerky, but I’ve started to see it a lot more. The problem is that it’s not a very good term for what it describes. It’s not about using a black avatar in a game or using black emojis – it’s about using those things as a way to play with stereotypes. It’s not uncommon to see “edgy” white teens playing black avatars in games and using it as an opportunity to do their best impression of “ebonics” or throw around racial slurs. The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the “tough black woman giving side-eye” or “black rappers performing for a camera” variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there’s definitely a pattern I’ve started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn’t as much of a reach as I originally thought. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848/180 "2019-02-04T20:58:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think white people look at another white person and say to themselves, “Hey! A white guy/woman! Look at all the whiteness!” No, they look at the things about that person that have nothing to do with their skin coloring, since their skin coloring isn’t remarkable. That’s how black people want to be seen too. Is that so hard to understand? I think you’ve over-explained some of your views in this thread, though to be fair it’s always going to be near-impossible to explain offense. But the quoted paragraph is one of the best explanations of anything ever posted on these boards. -RNATB, brown person dressed as a brown person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-qualifies-as-blackface-what-forms-are-offensive-and-why/828848.md?page=10)