What exactly qualifies as blackface? What forms are offensive and why?

[k9bfriender]

@Novelty_Bobble

I am aware that every action or word or belief or opinion I mave have, do or say can cause offence.

Well, good then, not sure why you are going down this line of questioning and justification then.

No, I’m very careful with my words, If I misspoke I’d have no problem correcting it and have done so on many occasions but what I actually said was

Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their “primary intention”

Ummm, it’s not that subtly different. You certainly are implying that you believe that that is their primary motivation, as you then ascribe a consequence to that motivation, and, what you didn’t quote of your own, a judgment of that, as well.

They did not say that it was their primary intent, so why did you even bring up the concept of primary intent in the first place?

No, no discomfort at all.

Right, that’s because you didn’t learn anything, but instead, just stayed in your comfort zone.

[typoink]

@Novelty_Bobble

Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their “primary intention”

In which case, you only responded to a hypothetical that you invented. No, causing discomfort is not my PRIMARY INTENT, but I AM aware of it and, as such, choosing to take that action means I accept that intent.

You seem to suggest you have no ability to discern that some actions are more likely to offend than others, and, as such, possible offense is not worth considering in choosing your own actions because you cannot be completely certain.

I can only assume you would go into a restaurant, loudly and copiously fart and spit on the floor, then claim you had no idea that others would find that inappropriate.

[k9bfriender]

@typoink

I can only assume you would go into a restaurant, loudly and copiously fart and spit on the floor, then claim you had no idea that others would find that inappropriate.

It’s not? What, are you supposed to tip now, too?

[Acsenray]

@Novelty_Bobble

you didn’t watch it? or don’t think there is benign intent?

I watched it. I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intent. Given the history of blackface, he shouldn’t have painted his face. The fact that he chose to do so reflects his callous exercise of his privilege.

It’s a racist act by virtue of its place in a society steeped in racism.

“But I didn’t mean it that way” doesn’t fly with me. He still decided to go ahead with it, and that reflects a disregard for the daily experiences and concerns of non-white people.

[Littleman]

@k9bfriender

Here’s the thing. We do not have weekly or even monthly meetings of the Social Justice Warriors league. We do not sit around and decide what terms or phrases to be offended by, we do not determine when it is appropriate to use makeup to alter skin tone. No matter what you do, even if you manage to convince everyone in this thread that there is never anything to be offended by, that isn’t going to change the fact that there are still a couple few million people out there who are not part of this conversation.

You seem to complain that there are people who will judge you by the actions that you choose to do in public. Well, complain all you want, they aren’t going anywhere.

What we are trying to give is advice, on what will offend, and some reasons as to why that would be. You can criticize this advice, you can complain that this advice makes it unfair for you and your dreams of cosplaying a black character, but that won’t change the fact that the advice is sound, if you don’t want to receive flak for how you decide to present yourself.

Then the goalposts are moved, not from what I can agree is offensive and shows bad judgement, to what you read some person out there with a blog said once, and you demand that we justify what you remember that one guy said.

If you wear blackface, I will not be personally offended. It is not mocking me or my ethnicity or culture. But I see that it does, and that it shows poor judgment to do so. If you are criticized, then it’s not like you were not aware that you would be.

You may as well complain that water is wet and winter is cold, and be upset that we advise you to put on a jacket if you are going out. We are not trying to restrict your freedom of clothing choice, you are welcome to wear shorts and a t-shirt out into the blizzard, but you should be aware that there may be consequences.

Now, as far as those consequences, we can give you some advice on how many people that you will piss off. If you wear stereotypical blackface makeup with the lips and do some mocking singing and dancing, you are going to piss off pretty much everybody. If you wear a wig that is not of your ethnicity, there may be somebody out there that chooses to bring attention to themself by criticizing you. Then there is everything in between, and it is a judgement call. Most people were okay with Tropic Thunder, but I am aware that there are those who were not, even some who have boycotted Downey Jr for it.

the thing is, is that it is a judgement call. Not matter how you do it and how respectful you are, there will be some who are offended. Depending on how sincere your reasons are, and how respectfully you do it, you may offend more or less. However, if you have difficulty even understanding why such things would be offensive, then you are demonstrating a lack of that capacity for judgement, and it is best you just stay away from it all together.

All true, my only real complaint is the lack of hard fast rules. I’m sure that seems really dumb when you’re talking about peoples feelings but it’s just something I struggle with immensely.

You guys I think gave me a much better idea of rules then trying to sort out every blog and complaint which only seemed to throw on another rule every time I read one.

[Littleman]

Oh and check it out, real life 3rd century black knight undoubtedly black like sub Saharan African descent type guy from the paintings.

Saint Maurice

[Acsenray]

@Littleman

All true, my only real complaint is the lack of hard fast rules.

You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations–some of them that could result in your becoming dead–on a daily basis.

[Littleman]

This whole cultural appropriation thing seems to be divided in 2 camps roughly.

A. It doesn’t exist, all culture belongs to everyone.
B. It does exist but whether it’s ok or not is wildly different in every single case with no real consistentcy in any of it.

So I’m probably going to ignore it since it’s never once come up nor have I ever heard the phrase in real life.

[Littleman]

@Acsenray

You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations–some of them that could result in your becoming dead–on a daily basis.

I can’t, I’m not even allowed to pretend.

Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts and taking any of it to a point of violence is even more nuts.

The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Acsenray

I watched it. I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intent. Given the history of blackface, he shouldn’t have painted his face. The fact that he chose to do so reflects his callous exercise of his privilege.

It’s a racist act by virtue of its place in a society steeped in racism.

“But I didn’t mean it that way” doesn’t fly with me. He still decided to go ahead with it, and that reflects a disregard for the daily experiences and concerns of non-white people.

Well fair enough. If such a gentle, obvious parody of a beloved world leader by a liberal comedy icon leaves you clutching your pearls then there really is no further discussion to be had.

[Littleman]

@you_with_the_face

It’s not logically nonsense. The point is that if you can successfully capture a character or celebrity’s essence without slathering ugly paint on your face, then you’re going to look stupid and awkward when you choose to slather ugly paint on your face.

The most successful costumes, IMO, are those that tell you exactly whom is being impersonated with the least amount of fluff. Skin color is “fluff”, unless you’re dressing up as a fictional being like Shrek.

And maybe it’s just me, but I much rather go to a costume party where people feel clever and liberated enough to go as characters they look nothing like naturally, than to go to one where everyone sticks with characters they most closely resemble. A tall Asian guy dressed as Mini Me, a curvy white woman dressed like President Camancho, and monstro dressed like David Bowie are going to be infinitely more interesting to see than a bald white guy rather predictably dressed like Mr. Clean.

That just lends some logic to why it’s unnecessary.

The rest is again, your feelings,self admittedly.

Bear in mind, if it were acceptable, i guarantee I could airbrush you realistically to any skin tone you wanted.

[Littleman]

And points for mentioning president Camacho
Terry crews is actually a talented airbrush artist too

[MrDibble]

@Novelty_Bobble

Here’s Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela

Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?

What the fuck did I just watch? Yes, that was racist as fuck. And not acceptable.

[MrDibble]

@Novelty_Bobble

a gentle, obvious parody of a beloved world leader

Yeah, I give you one guess how that “gentle” parody would play in South Africa. But I guess we’re all just pearl-clutchers :rolleyes:

[Acsenray]

@Littleman

I can’t, I’m not even allowed to pretend.

Can you try to be less literal? And maybe accept information about other people’s experiences?

Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts

Is that what is fucking nuts? Or is centuries of racism, race-based atrocities, and white supremacy what is fucking nuts?

Take that feeling of “fucking nuts” and apply it a deep dive consideration that it is all based on the fact that a group of people invented the concept of race (specifically, the white race) in order to create a privileged class for themselves and then used that to change the lives of generations of people everywhere.

The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.

The kids today are in a much better place than the kids yesterday, who didn’t live in a world in which the ruling white class had to give a second thought about this. These are growing pains, and much less dire than centuries of blood.

[BeagleJesus]

@Acsenray

You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations–some of them that could result in your becoming dead–on a daily basis.

This x1000

[BeagleJesus]

@Littleman

I can’t, I’m not even allowed to pretend.

Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts and taking any of it to a point of violence is even more nuts.

The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.

The kids will inherit this baggage so long as the adults continue to refuse to properly address the problem

[BeagleJesus]

@Novelty_Bobble

You should give a shit, the law certainly does. The person in the car that hit you had a stroke, Still don’t give a shit? their brakes failed, still don’t give a shit? a wasp flew in the window and stung them in the eye (a real incident I saw), still don’t give a shit?

Are will still talking about blackface? This seems like something else…or does the law explicitly state that blackface is acceptable if a white person’s brakes fail (or whatever the hell that analogy is supposed to allude to. God, you’re not gonna make me define analogy now are you?)

@Novelty_Bobble

I’ve never told what you definition to use, I am however criticising you when you are using your own, very wide and comprehensive definition of “blackface” to include every single instance of skin darkening and accusing it of racism and malicious intent. I think that is an unhelpful way to react.

I don’t give a damn about your criticism. You can define whatever you want however you want and I can do the same. When you say “it’s an unhelpful way to react you mean it’s unhelpful for you. Personally, I have found it to be an excellent way to reduce the random bullshit I’ve had to deal with and quickly identify people who are (as Charlie Murphy puts it) habitual line steppers

[SmartAleq]

@BeagleJesus

God, you’re not gonna make me define analogy now are you?

Just remember, you can’t spell “analogy” without “anal” and “log.”

[BeagleJesus]

@SmartAleq

Just remember, you can’t spell “analogy” without “anal” and “log.”

I never thought of it that way…now, I will never be able to forget.