# What Existed Before Anything Existed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662 "2018-02-12T02:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/21 "2018-02-12T06:17:27Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Given unlimited time an unlimited situations, it’s possible we’ve already done this thread in the past. 47,308 times. Twelve times we agreed there was a giant hotdog before the Universe began. Damn, I’m old. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/22 "2018-02-12T07:25:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know if Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle applies outside our universe, but if it does nothing is not a stable state. That’s the reason for quantum foam. Lawrence Krauss’s “A Universe From Nothing” took this kind of approach, but it doesn’t address the deeper philosophical “why something rather than nothing” problem, because the physical laws that govern the processes (however deep you go) sure look like they are a “something” that we can imagine did not exist. I doubt that there’s any satisfying way to address that deeper question. It’s turtles all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![INFOSEEKER\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3da27b/32.png) [@INFOSEEKER\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/INFOSEEKER_II)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/23 "2018-02-12T07:36:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There was no point _in time_ when nothing existed. The existence of an arrow of time derives from the state of the universe, so you don’t have time if nothing exists. You can find talks and articles by Sean Carroll on this. Much of it is, frankly, beyond me - but he’s an interesting guy, and a good speaker. > > But probably what you’re getting at is more the “why is there something rather than nothing” question. That’s something I don’t think there’s any satisfactory answer to. Of course, that doesn’t mean there’s not a Wikipedia article about it. > [Why is there anything at all? - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_why_there_is_anything_at_all) There is no time in space! We judge our world time by the units of measure as the world rotates 1 complete rotation. Dividing it into increments of Day, Hour, Minute, second and so on. If we send a space craft to the moon, it is referenced to world time. It takes so many days/months etc. to arrive at a location and return. Once a body/planet etc. is moving it has nothing to resist therefore it continues to move if no other planet or ? is close enough to cause a magnetic pull. If the pull is great enough it will orbit the close object. To keep the world in orbit it has to travel at an exact speed that balances out the magnetic pull of the sun and the inertia that wants it to pull away as a ball on a string pulls away when whirled around. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/24 "2018-02-12T07:45:05Z")
It’s hard to disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/25 "2018-02-12T09:32:39Z")
The thing is, saying that “there was no _before_ time itself” miss the point a little bit because when people ask about what was before the big bang, they often mean before in an explanatory sense. It’s really a philosophical question, that is somewhat difficult to clearly articulate in English. And the simple answer is: we don’t know. The first few answers in this thread got it. And not “We don’t know, therefore god” but just “We don’t know”. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/26 "2018-02-12T09:45:25Z")
> [@INFOSEEKER\_II](#): > > There is no time in space! We judge our world time by the units of measure as the world rotates 1 complete rotation. Dividing it into increments of Day, Hour, Minute, second and so on. > If we send a space craft to the moon, it is referenced to world time. It takes so many days/months etc. to arrive at a location and return. > Once a body/planet etc. is moving it has nothing to resist therefore it continues to move if no other planet or ? is close enough to cause a magnetic pull. If the pull is great enough it will orbit the close object. > To keep the world in orbit it has to travel at an exact speed that balances out the magnetic pull of the sun and the inertia that wants it to pull away as a ball on a string pulls away when whirled around. - Actually, there _is_ time in space. That’s why it’s called ‘space-time’ - a single concept - because space and time are inseparable. See Einstein’s Special and General theories of relativity. - Our time standards are based on vibrations of the Caesium atom, not on the orbit or rotation of the earth. - I’m sure you mean ‘gravitational’, not ‘magnetic’. - A planet doesn’t have to travel ‘at an exact speed’. If the speed is greater, it will simply go into a higher orbit. In fact, the speed is constantly varying since the orbit is not circular, but elliptical. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/27 "2018-02-12T10:37:08Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > - Actually, there _is_ time in space. That’s why it’s called ‘space-time’ - a single concept - because space and time are inseparable. See Einstein’s Special and General theories of relativity. Yeah - that’s the trouble with threads like this - ‘time’ means at least two different things: [ul] [li]The universal phenomenon that allows change to occur and causes events to happen after or before other events (this is the one that’s meaningful to the question)[/li][li]Years, Months, days, hours, seconds, ticking clocks, rising and setting suns etc - units and conventions we use for measuring the above on Earth (this is the one that people tend to think is meaningful)[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/28 "2018-02-12T11:15:40Z")
Perhaps - what were the preconditions that, allowed/were required for, our universe to exit? There is a notion of change of state, of something. But it doesn’t need to be a change that occurs in our current universe’s space-time domain. Hardly watertight, but maybe an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/29 "2018-02-12T12:55:59Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The idea that something can come out of nothing is utterly irrational. Why? What actual, rational explanation do you have for why nothing cannot spontaneously give rise to something? > [@](#): > > If there is nothing, then there will continue to be nothing. There is no other possibility. Of course there is. Causality could be bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/30 "2018-02-12T13:00:04Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If there are laws of nature which have a tendency to produce space/time/matter, then there is not nothing: there are laws of nature. Then the question remains as to where these laws of nature came from. Ad infinitum. Indeed, this is my (amongst others’ of course) reply to the stock answer that people have thrown around for the past 10 years or invoking quantum instability etc. There needs to be some sort of matrix and laws for this randomness to create something out of, and that isn’t “nothing”. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/31 "2018-02-12T14:23:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why? What actual, rational explanation do you have for why nothing cannot spontaneously give rise to something? > Of course there is. Causality could be bunk. Causality could be bunk? So you’re saying that the universe could have been created by a miracle? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/32 "2018-02-12T14:30:31Z")
Before this universe was another one. It contracted due to the Big Crunch, which was followed by the Big Bang. And before that one, there was another one. It’s a good a theory as any, and so far, hasn’t been proved wrong. For now, I’m sticking to it. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/33 "2018-02-12T14:38:11Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Before this universe was another one. It contracted due to the Big Crunch, which was followed by the Big Bang. And before that one, there was another one. > > It’s a good a theory as any, and so far, hasn’t been proved wrong. For now, I’m sticking to it. Turtles… uh, universes… all the way down? :) ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/34 "2018-02-12T14:58:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well right, it would be like describing a modern smartphone to someone from 2000 BC. The only concepts they’d have to explain such a thing would be “The Gods” or “Magic/Sorcery”. > > “No no, it sends a signal…” > “Like what, with small demons or birds?” I’ll have you know my phone signals do go out as little demons! ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/35 "2018-02-12T15:55:54Z")
The Bright and Luminous Void of nothingness ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/36 "2018-02-12T16:02:09Z")
Ask a simple question like, “Why am I here”? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/37 "2018-02-12T16:16:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Ask a simple question like, “Why am I here”? I think we already did that one, at least for IT staff on a snow day. It was something about the accounting department being there to do payroll, and somebody has to fix the photocopier if it breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/38 "2018-02-12T16:29:04Z")
> [@thatbpguy](#): > > At some point in “time” there were no suns, planets, galaxies, cosmic dust… nothing. At some time there was absolutely nothing. How did this all come about? With only 35 posts I can only imagine your next question, but seriously if it was before the universe which fills all in all then there was nothing to see till God said, “Let there be light”. These are the same questions they ask on the other side as soon as you get there, but I’m not there yet so I can’t answer your question. Anyone else is just an uneducated guess … :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/39 "2018-02-12T16:37:19Z")
We don’t actually know that “nothing” existed prior to the Big Bang, just that the Big Bang allowed the formation of the various particles and waves that we now use to observe and measure the universe. As a result, the Big Bang is as far back as can look (and likely will ever be able to look) with the tools at hand and any we are likely to develop in future. Introducing a god into this is a waste of effort - it adds no understanding, just more complexity. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662/40 "2018-02-12T17:43:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Before this universe was another one. It contracted due to the Big Crunch, which was followed by the Big Bang. And before that one, there was another one. > > It’s a good a theory as any, and so far, hasn’t been proved wrong. For now, I’m sticking to it. I’m pretty sure it _has_ been disproven, at least so far as our current universe is concerned. There simply isn’t enough mass and spacetime is expanding too fast (and even accelerating!) for it all to come back together again in a big crunch, no matter how long we wait. Of course that’s all based on our current understanding of cosmology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-existed-before-anything-existed/808662.md?page=3)