# What explains the SDMB's large Jewish membership? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049 "2006-08-17T04:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/41 "2006-08-18T03:33:59Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] I think a better question is “Why are there so many non-US/Canadian members here, when the Straight Dope column isn’t published outside North America?” [/QUOTE] Our choice of bait. Yup! The bait. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/42 "2006-08-18T06:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=flight] Just saw _Annie Hall_ again recently (I think that may have been by a Jewish guy) and your post reminded me of the scene where the screen is split with Annie and Alvie each sitting in their therapists’ offices. Therapists: So, how often do you have sex? Alvie: Hardly ever, maybe three times a week. Annie: Constantly, probably three times a week. [/QUOTE] Damn it, Allen was such a genius. WHAT HAPPENED!!! ARG! ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/43 "2006-08-18T07:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=nameless] I’m not sure that helps. Maybe I am just reflexively opposing a statement that, on its face, suggests that Jews are just innately smarter than other ethnic groups. You’ve clarified that you do not know whether this is genetic or environmental. I’m still not even convinced that it can be shown that Jews are smarter than the population as a whole. You can maybe show that they play chess better on average, or that they win disproportionate amounts of Nobel Prizes, but that can’t be extrapolated–it’s just too broad of a claim that you’re trying to support. There’s not a definition of intelligence that enough people agree on to assess whether one ethnic group is “more intelligent” than another. [/QUOTE] Now I made a new definition, which I think is quite clearly not the same as “intelligence”. If you still think it’s the same, could you tell me a word / description I can use which avoids that all-encompassing word? And what I’m trying to do is not to extrapolate to intelligence, I’m trying to extrapolate to SDMB membership. Which I really don’t see why I shouldn’t be able to. Ok, first, jews are more skilled in matters pertaining the intellect. Intellect: he ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding. (That is, it is not only inborn. It is not the same as IQ. And hopefully not the same as intelligence.) And there are many reasons for thinking so. In addition to the arguments already stated we have: - The average salary of jews are higher. - A very disproportionate number of succesful comedians are jews. (today, Seinfeld, Jon stewart, sacha baron cohen, Bill Maher, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/44 "2006-08-18T09:18:46Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] - The average salary of jews are higher. [/QUOTE] Ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!! Richer people are more able to provide their kids with a better education. ---
**Author:** ![mamboman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mamboman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamboman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/45 "2006-08-18T09:24:41Z")
You’re also assuming that all the people on the Board who _say_ they are Jewish really _are_ Jewish. They could be fake Jews, just pretending so they can score with chicks or something. mm 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/46 "2006-08-18T09:26:55Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!! Richer people are more able to provide their kids with a better education. [/QUOTE] And you agree that if a group has higher education on average, it will have a larger membership of the SDMB, or what are you trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/47 "2006-08-18T09:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] And you agree that if a group has higher education on average, it will have a larger membership of the SDMB, or what are you trying to say? [/QUOTE] You were the one still trying to make the case for Jews having increased inate intellectual capabilities, when the evidence isn’t anything like as strong as you’d like to think. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/48 "2006-08-18T09:39:14Z")
[QUOTE=Eleusis] WTF? Pit him if you must, but sheesh, calling somebody Miss Coulter should IMO be akin to calling somebody an asshole. [/QUOTE] _Miss_ Coulter? Take a look at that neck sometime. If she’s got an apple, chances are she’s also got a banana. Back to the OP - Jewish culture favors education, plain and simple. There’s no getting around this and no arguing about it. Use some common sense if you have any doubts. Know many Jewish steelworkers? Jewish bricklayers? Jewish mechanics? During the very earliest period of mass Jewish immigration to the US, there was one generation of working class Jews - mostly in the garment industry of New York. Within the next half century they rocketed to the top of the legal, medical, academic, scientific and business worlds. This is not an accident, nor is it the work of some kind of conspiracy. The Jewish religion is all about deep, intensive study of the Torah and Talmud - and the European Jewish culture is all about survival as a minority. It has nothing to do with economics, in my opinion - it’s all about the fact that the Jewish culture is a scholarly culture. Even the poorest “shtetls” in Ukraine and Poland had a thriving culture of scholarship where the _shul_ was the main event in every man’s life. Study, study, study! Take this kind of culture, transplant it into a free market economy like America - it’s unsurprising that the Jews are where they are. This board, as I like to think of it, is part of the internet elite. And in any intellectual elite, there will be lots of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/49 "2006-08-18T09:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] You were the one still trying to make the case for Jews having increased inate intellectual capabilities, when the evidence isn’t anything like as strong as you’d like to think. [/QUOTE] On the contrary, I am still trying to make the case that Im NOT saying anything about whether the intellectual capabilities of jews are inborn. Did you hear that everyone? I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES OF JEWS ARE INBORN! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/50 "2006-08-18T09:56:31Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] On the contrary, I am still trying to make the case that Im NOT saying anything about whether the intellectual capabilities of jews are inborn. [/QUOTE] OK, good, but could you clarify what you _did_ mean here: [QUOTE=mr. jp] Ok, first, jews are more skilled in matters pertaining the intellect. Intellect: he ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding. (That is, it is not only inborn. It is not the same as IQ. And hopefully not the same as intelligence.) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/51 "2006-08-18T12:16:51Z")
I attribute it to [Cecil’s observation](http://www.straightdope.com/) about the people attracted to the SDMB: > [@](#): > > Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks. Though I refuse to comment on which category our Jewish members represent. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/52 "2006-08-18T12:24:32Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] These signs point to posters being Jewish??? I often do not post on Saturdays, but that’s because it’s, um, _the weekend_, and I’m generally out doing other things. And “Og” is a Jewish thing? [/QUOTE] Same here, I usually post from work. Since I’ve been working weekdays for the last 5 years, that means I don’t post on Saturdays. I use Og as a joke. And last I looked, I was a practicing Catholic… a Jesuit-trained Catholic, from the land where the Jesuit founders were born, a land where the ability to debate is often viewed as the first measurement of a person’s worth (I’ve tried to explain to outsiders that when someone throws a subtle insult at them, they’re supposed to grab the ball and throw it back, but they don’t get it; they’re so afraid to insult their hosts that they end up being classified as “either no brains or no spine”). I believe **tomndebb** and **FinnAgain** hit the nail all the way through the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/53 "2006-08-18T13:49:31Z")
I don’t want to hijack this but I hope you all realize that you are being racist? > [@](#): > > Ok, first, jews are more skilled in matters pertaining the intellect. > [@](#): > > groups who are known for their literacy and their willingness to engage in rational inquiry. If someone said that blacks are obviously better athletes because of the preponderance of African-Americans in professional sports, you would all be screaming about how racist they were. You are applying generalizations and specious logic to support your theories. Someone could twist > [@](#): > > Jewish culture favors education, plain and simple. There’s no getting around this and no arguing about it. Use some common sense if you have any doubts. Know many Jewish steelworkers? Jewish bricklayers? Jewish mechanics? into the old “money-grubbing Jew”. I’m sure Louis Farrakhan would love to jump in with a few of his opinions here about the Jewish culture. Drop the stereotypes, folks. “Why does it seem like there are a lot of Jews, atheists, liberals, gays, etc. on SDMB?” Who cares!!! Enjoy the diversity that you are not normally exposed to! It seems that most people, despite their claims to being open to other cultures, insulate themselves within their own homogenous environments. If we are unwilling to open ourselves to varied views, lifestyles and belief systems then we will never be able to progress as a species. I love hearing the views from people outside of my usual experiences. Ok course you are all usually wrong… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/54 "2006-08-18T14:37:32Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] I don’t want to hijack this but I hope you all realize that you are being racist? [/QUOTE] Making an observation isn’t necessarily racist. [QUOTE=erie774] If someone said that blacks are obviously better athletes because of the preponderance of African-Americans in professional sports, you would all be screaming about how racist they were. [/QUOTE] Some of it is cultural and some of it is genetic. Jews use to dominate basketball in Philadelphia before World War II, because many poor Jewish kids saw it as a way out of the ghetto. Some human subpopulations have genetic advantages in certain sports, such as having the right body type and muscle composition. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/55 "2006-08-18T15:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] I don’t want to hijack this but I hope you all realize that you are being racist? If someone said that blacks are obviously better athletes because of the preponderance of African-Americans in professional sports, [/QUOTE] Only **mr. jp** said anything approaching that (more Jews win nobel prizes therefore they are more skilled in intellect or whatever the hell it is). As I pointed out upthread, that’s a terrible rationale for the claim he’s making. I don’t think it’s racist to say that cultures are different in ways we can observe and characterize. For example, American culture is historically individualist while Asian culture is traditionally collectivist. Can you argue with that statement? Is it racist? I don’t think so. Is it fair to dismiss all cultural comparisons as racism? I think not–just evaluate each one on its merits. So an interesting debate might be: Does Jewish culture value intellectual inquiry more than other cultures? ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/56 "2006-08-18T15:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] Some human subpopulations have genetic advantages in certain sports, such as having the right body type and muscle composition. [/QUOTE] That is the same kind of statement that got Jimmy the Greek fired. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/57 "2006-08-18T16:34:46Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] [Quote=mks57] Some human subpopulations have genetic advantages in certain sports, such as having the right body type and muscle composition. [/quote] That is the same kind of statement that got Jimmy the Greek fired. [/QUOTE] True, but that is not the **general** view being put forth, here. While **mr. jp** ’s initial statement had overtones of that remark–a claim from which he has backed off, somewhat–an observation about Jewish behavior in a cultural situation is not particularly racist. In fact, when the frequent battles on the SDMB over whether (some vaguely identified “black”) race was naturally more atheletic than others, one of the primary arguments put forth against that has been the idea of cultural factors influencing the career choices of blacks in the U.S. A cultural influence to develop literacy and engage in discussion based on literary sources makes no claims regarding one’s innate abilities. Again, the typical argument _against_ the racial claims of Shockley and others, promoting the idea of a physical reason for Jewish dominance in some intellectual arenas (or to claim that IQ is some objective measurement of intelligence) has been to note that Jews tend to excel because of cultural pressures that encourage them to pursue, at a greater percentage than the general population, those studies and careers that will show up most dramatically in literary or scientific _papers_ or on IQ tests. In contrast, poor Jimmy Snyder made the uninformed claim that blacks had a physical advantage due to breeding, despite there being no evidence for his claim, (while contrary evidence was readily available–too few generations to have “bred” any change in the populations, no evidence of any such breeding programs, ample evidence of random (even chaotic) procreation among the black population, including large, uncontrolled admixtures from the white and American Indian populations). (And **mks57** probably could find a few examples of human populations who exhibited very strong tendencies toward particular athletic abilities. Of course, those populations would be limited to much smaller groups than anything resembling the very large and vaguely defined populations known as “Jews” or “blacks.”) ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/58 "2006-08-18T16:45:23Z")
[QUOTE=nameless] I don’t think it’s racist to say that cultures are different in ways we can observe and characterize. For example, American culture is historically individualist while Asian culture is traditionally collectivist. Can you argue with that statement? Is it racist? I don’t think so. Is it fair to dismiss all cultural comparisons as racism? I think not–just evaluate each one on its merits. So an interesting debate might be: Does Jewish culture value intellectual inquiry more than other cultures? [/QUOTE] OK, but what denomination would you consider the true “Jewish culture”? Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Chassidism, Karait? What about the African Jews (Sephardi, Mizrahi, Ashkenazi)? Does American culture refer to what is promoted by the entertainment industry; a hedonistic acceptance of “if it feels good, do it”. Or does it mean the business culture of anything for a buck? Or the conservative culture of the “nuclear family”? Because of the early 20th century “success” of such individuals as Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, and Dutch Shultz would you say that Jews have a natural inclination for organized crime? No more than you should say the same for Genovese, Gotti, or Luciano being indicative of Italian-Americans. Asians are better students but worse drivers, blacks are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Scots are cheap, Irish are drunks. The assertions that one group is better or worse suited for a task than another or has a certain characteristic is a form of discrimination. Don’t generalize. What is being suggested is essentially a positive stereotype. But it is still just a stereotype. Go watch the movie “Crash” again. (Not the James Spader version. That one is just creepy). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/59 "2006-08-18T17:33:42Z")
I think the premise is not only unproven but unprovable. When Israeli questions arise there are a group that reinforce each other to a great degree. It is not a known fact a that they are all Jewish. They are active and willing contributors. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049/60 "2006-08-18T18:21:29Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] That is the same kind of statement that got Jimmy the Greek fired. [/QUOTE] Notice that I did not say “blacks”. That’s far too imprecise. Some groups of humans tend to be tall, short, thin, stocky, etc. in comparison to the mean. Their muscles may have differing proportions of slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers. They may have adaptations to local conditions that affect performance in specific sports. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-explains-the-sdmbs-large-jewish-membership/369049.md?page=4)