# What extraordinary evidence for God's existence would be acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451 "2002-09-24T13:17:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/21 "2002-09-24T22:35:46Z")
That would prove only that zombies exist. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/22 "2002-09-25T03:36:30Z")
That’s already been proven! The Voodoo ritual for creating zombies is already well known (it involves several coma inducing toxins, including one from everyone’s good friend, bufo marinus, and then heavy doses of a certain hallucinogenic that basically gives the “zombie” a chemical lombotomy). ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/23 "2002-09-25T03:55:32Z")
The Rapture would convince me of the existence of a Biblical God. The sting in the tail is that as long as I don’t personally believe in the existence of a deity (Christian or otherwise), I don’t feel obliged to do anything in respect of that diety or convince others to do so. Were I to become convinced of the existence of a Biblical God, far from worshipping him, I’d be spending a lot of time and energy thwarting his will and attempting to convince others to do likewise. {I’ve just finished reading a novel called _The Last Day_ by Glenn Kleer, which posits some very interesting possibilities about how humanity - and the established churches in particular - might react to the Second Coming} ---
**Author:** ![musteion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@musteion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musteion)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/24 "2002-09-25T04:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > **I think the responses here kinda sum up standard, non-theistic rationale: There is no god, and any evidence that proves there is a god must be explainable by some other means, because like I said, there is no god.** That assessment doesn’t seem at all fair. I doubt anyone here would contest their non-belief in unicorns, but the presence of a unicorn in the room would certainly send most of us either laughing, doubting, or running for the psych ward. How much more so for a vulgar display of power from a formless, shapeless, all-everything deity? Since belief on the part of theists is based on faith and not empirical evidence, the question of evidence is moot, but it is a valid and interesting one for non-theists. A better question for theists would be why there are any converts to one religion from any other at all? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/25 "2002-09-25T05:57:07Z")
I cannot describe specific evidence that would induce a belief in so nebulous an idea. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/26 "2002-09-25T07:26:21Z")
Well, Hat’s Rabbit sort of beat me to the punch, but I’m still going to put in my 2 cents: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > If you asked God for a $5 bill to appear before you and it did, would you believe? You know, if it was something like that that was so unlikely that it couldn’t be chalked up to coincidence, I suppose I would. I thought the “spelling out something with the stars” was a good one. Or what about if He appeared simultaneously on every TV, billboard, and website on the planet? That would be hard to ignore. > [@](#): > > He’s already done so much and still so many don’t believe. I disagree - In my life so far, I haven’t seen any evidence that’s even remotely convincing. You make it sound like God is bombarding us with miracles every day and we are stubbornly refusing to believe. I hate to rain on your parade, but THAT’S NOT HAPPENING. The 5-dollar bill didn’t appear, the stars are still in the same place, and I’m still getting re-runs of “Cheers” on my TV (And no, Sam Mallone isn’t looking any more like Jesus tonight). If some miracles did happen, then we’d have something to talk about - but I’m afraid they just aren’t happening. And no, rainbows, puppies and flowers are not miracles. Don’t get me wrong - they’re wonderful, but they’re not miracles. [Oh, and since there always seems to be some joker in every thread who takes every post 100% literally, let me just add that those 3 things are not the ONLY miracles that I would consider to be convincing. They are not my litmus test for God; they are just EXAMPLES.] ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/27 "2002-09-25T07:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*\*\*This is another problem I have with the currently accepted notions of God, that there is supposedly a Truth that is out there, and yet no two groups out of the thousands that exist can completely agree on what this Truth is. At least if all the theists agreed on God and His Message, it would be easier. 😕 \*\* And if we did, I have no doubt that you would be convinced that we were all brain-washed and programmed to believe without questioning. The concept of a personal God requires an individual relationship with that God. Since we are all individuals, each of us will have a different relationship with the person of God. That we disagree over trivial issues should come as no surprise - that we kill each other over our disagreements simply shows our fallen, sinful state and says nothing about God. Grim ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/28 "2002-09-25T12:16:08Z")
I think a cricket match between the Tutonic gods lead by Oden and the Grecco-Roman Gods lead by Zeus played on the lawn of the White house would do it. The silly thing about all of these "What would it take . . . " threads is that everybody assumes Yahweh when they see the word god. There are thousands of gods in humanity’s mythologies. What would it take for you to accept their legitimacy? You Chrisitans posting these things are every bit as big an unbeliver as any atheist. They just disbelieve in one more god than you do. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/29 "2002-09-25T12:31:24Z")
I seem to recall hearing that Bertrand Russell once said that convincing proof of God’s exiastence would be the Voice of God telling him exactly what he would be doing tomorrow – presumably person things that wouldn’t be known to anyone else. > [@](#): > > If you asked God for a $5 bill to appear before you and it did, would you believe? Stupid question – there are too many ways for a $5 bill to appear. If, on the other hand, I asked for a $17.50 bill to appear before me and it actually did, then I’d have to give the idea of God very serious consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/30 "2002-09-25T12:56:14Z")
If at all possible, I’d like to keep this civil, and not digress into theist bashing. Note that I am not directing this comment to any one poster, it’s just that I have been in my fair share of those types of threads and what I am really looking for is an open discussion of what those of us who do **not** self identify as theists consider acceptable evidence, and perhaps a theistic reaction to that. Anyway, on to the topic… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > **If you asked God for a $5 bill to appear before you and it did, would you believe? What if you were sitting outside on a bench in a park, the leaves whistling with the wind, and seconds after you asked God, a slow falling $5 landed in your lap. Would you give credit to the wind, to the guy chasing the flying $5 bill, or to God?** So here I would probably stick with parsimony and chalk it up to improbable coincidence. But along the lines of Gideon and his fleece, if I could then request a crumpled $100 bill with a torn top right edge to fall from the sky and it did, you betcha I’d rethink my position. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*\*He’s already done so much and still so many don’t believe. \*\* Yeah… I know where you’re coming from on this **dreamer** , but like I said earlier, parsimony explains things so well without requiring the invocation of divine intervention. I used to thank God for that closeup parking spot, but have since noticed that I still sometimes get closeup spots and I still sometimes have to walk. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/31 "2002-09-25T13:01:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > I think a cricket match between the Tutonic gods lead by Oden and the Grecco-Roman Gods lead by Zeus played on the lawn of the White house would do it. > \*\* I think a Grecco-Roman wrestling match between Vishnu and Zeus would be cool. How about if I cut someone of my own choosing in half. If someone can put them back together with a snap of his fingers, I would consider calling him God. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/32 "2002-09-25T13:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > \*\*The silly thing about all of these "What would it take . . . " threads is that everybody assumes Yahweh when they see the word god. There are thousands of gods in humanity’s mythologies. What would it take for you to accept their legitimacy? > \*\* And this ties into my OP when I said “let’s not limit this to the J\C God - what evidence would be convincing for the existence of any gods?” I would be interested in hearing from our largest group of theists here - the Christians - what their answer to this question would be. I’d like to specifically ask **dreamer, Lib, Poly, Mangetout** , or any other thoughtful Christian out there, could you please give us your take on this? Your humble servant Mars ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/33 "2002-09-25T14:47:20Z")
What about the miracle at Fatima? From here: [http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/FatimaMiracle.htm](http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/FatimaMiracle.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*Portuguese phenomena known as the Miracle of Fatima. For five months, three peasant children had been meeting with the Holy Mother once a month. The Lady promised that God would work a great miracle in October “so that all may believe.” The event was reported in newspapers around the world, and by 10/13/1917, there were more than 70,000 people gathered in the Cova da Iria, come to witness the miracle. > > As the Lady was about to leave, she pointed to the sun. Lucy excitedly repeated the gesture, and the people looked into the sky. The rain had ceased, the clouds parted, and the sun shone forth, but not in its usual brilliance. Instead, it appeared like a silver disc, pale as the moon, at which all could gaze without straining their eyes. Suddenly, impelled by some mysterious force, the disc began to whirl in the sky, casting off great shafts of multicolored light. Red, green, blue, yellow, violet – the enormous rays shot across the sky at all angles, lighting up the entire countryside for many miles around, but particularly the upturned faces of those 70,000 spellbound people\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/34 "2002-09-25T15:14:01Z")
A more detailed explanation of what happenned at Fatima can be found here: [http://www.fatima.org/story1.html](http://www.fatima.org/story1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/35 "2002-09-25T17:03:53Z")
I think a high profile ressurrection would do it for me. It would have to be someone well known, who was verifiably and unquestionably dead (perhaps a traumatic death), with a recorded autopsy and many witnesses. Autopsy scars on the resurrected body would be a nice touch. Oh, and before **His4Ever** chimes in; no, Jesus does not meet these criteria. I’m thinking John Lennon, JFK or Yitzak Rabin (No, I don’t want to debate whether these people are worthy of resurrection; I’m just saying they would be believable candidates to prove resurrection). ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/36 "2002-09-25T19:06:27Z")
Ok, this is God we are talking about here right? I would accept nothing less than God appearing to every single human being on the face of the Earth at the same time, saying “hey dudes, I’m God” and then using deity like powers to make us all believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/37 "2002-09-25T19:22:16Z")
Why should He “make” you believe? Won’t you be pissed when He robs you of your free will? Sounds to me more like you’re looking for a genie. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/38 "2002-09-25T19:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Why should He “make” you believe? Won’t you be pissed when He robs you of your free will? Sounds to me more like you’re looking for a genie. \*\* There’s a difference? The question was what would prove that there is a god. My scenario fits that bill. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/39 "2002-09-25T20:02:45Z")
You know, if the sun began whirling with colors, illuminating the sky, visible for miles around Fatima, **and not visible over the half of the earth in daylight** , then we gotta conclude that God is a nasty trickster, don’t we? It seems like it’d take **more** power to create an astronomical event that was visible only within certain townships than to create one that was visible everywhere. The shining-stars example is one that I like, although I see no reason for God to go halfway with it. Why not make the stars very clearly spell out a message in every single written language on earth? The message could be a short sentence: “The Bible is literally true,” or, “Look, don’t take yourselves so seriously,” or, “Listen to Rev. Fred Phelps: he’s where it’s at.” Seeing that would convince me that there was a phenomenally powerful being out there that wanted me to believe whatever the message said. All things being equal, I’d believe the being was telling the truth. More convincing would be a being that said, “from now on, pi will equal 3.0 exactly,” and when I tested it out on a perfect circle, it was true. Such a being would be as close to omnipotent as I can imagine, and I’d have a hard time imagining why such a being would bother to lie to me: if it can change the basic geometry of the universe, it could probably change whatever else it likes, too. If someone could predict everything that would happen to me the next day, it’d convince me that there was a being that could see the future. For all I know, this is a facet of time-travel. If a five-dollar-bill floated into my hand when I asked Jesus for one , that’d provide better evidence that Coyote exists than that Jesus does. I could totally see Coyote playing a practical joke on a dumb greedy human who thinks he can boss around the gods, but I can’t see Jesus whoring himself out for five bucks. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![boo1377](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@boo1377](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boo1377)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451/40 "2002-09-25T20:03:07Z")
it doesn’t matter if he convinced everyone tomarrow. the next generation didn’t live it and therefore wouldn’t believe it. and athesit would exist again. so what is the point. if i were God i would have given up too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-extraordinary-evidence-for-gods-existence-would-be-acceptable/129451.md?page=3)