# What falsifiable claims do the holy books make? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952 "2013-09-16T06:02:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/41 "2013-09-16T15:15:07Z")
> [@sentrix](#): > > sure sherlock. fact versus fiction. > > the world is a shitfest and what is god doing upstairs? masturbating? if the devil were dead would god create another one? Once again, we are not debating as to whether the Bible is true or false. The question is are there stories in the Bible that are _falsifiable_-are there any ways to show that particular stories in the Bible couldn’t be true. For example, see **Prof. Pepperwinkle’s** post showing that the walls of Jericho couldn’t have been caused by Joshua blowing a horn because Joshua wasn’t alive at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/42 "2013-09-16T15:24:24Z")
Assuming the records magically showed up tomorrow, I imagine that condemning a person (or three) to the death penalty would be recorded. supposed we find the records for AD 20 to AD 50 and no “Jesus the Nazerine” shows up as being crucified? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/43 "2013-09-16T15:27:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Assuming the records magically showed up tomorrow, I imagine that condemning a person (or three) to the death penalty would be recorded. supposed we find the records for AD 20 to AD 50 and no “Jesus the Nazerine” shows up as being crucified? That would just show that the records haven’t shown up yet, or that someone is hiding them, or that those particular records were destroyed somehow. Unfortunately, magical suppositions rarely work when trying to falsify a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/44 "2013-09-16T15:28:47Z")
> [@sentrix](#): > > sure sherlock. fact versus fiction. > > the world is a shitfest and what is god doing upstairs? masturbating? if the devil were dead would god create another one? > > between you and i, i worship the monkey king. \ sentrix, you were doing pretty well up until this post. Rein it in a bit as the above is on the line. No warning issued. \ ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/45 "2013-09-16T15:45:30Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > [Archaeological evidence](http://archaeology.about.com/od/jterms/qt/jericho.htm) shows that Jericho was destroyed circa 1800-1400 BCE. Joshua, according to Josephus, lived circa 1355-1245 BCE, too late to blow a horn and break its walls. The one spot on that page that mentions the timeframe 1800-1400 BCE does not strike me as “Archaeological Evidence”. More like “Archaeological Supposition based on Inference and Estimates” I’m not saying that there isn’t evidence, but I don’t see how that particular web page displays it in an incontrovertible way. Is there a link on that page I should be following? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/46 "2013-09-16T16:09:33Z")
[More evidence](http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/top-ten-biblical-discoveries-in-archaeology-3-jericho/) on the fall of Jericho, 1800-1400 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/47 "2013-09-16T16:11:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. > > (Third mention in this thread.) Actually it is if the thing being discussed should have left evidence. For instance, nearly a million Hebrews camping in the desert for 40 years should have left campfires, burial grounds (they pretty much all died before the entry to Canaan) and dessicated poop. The absence of any of this is pretty good evidence for the absence of the hikers. Some other examples. David was supposed to have a major empire. No one seems to have noticed. (Though there is some evidence of a king named David.) At the resurrection there were earthquakes and zombie saints marched around Jerusalem. No one noticed that also. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/48 "2013-09-16T16:17:11Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I also don’t believe that making the above statement is in-congruent with a faith in God. Crazy fundies of Christianity are just as bad as crazy fundies of Islam. The bible says that it is inspired of God, not written by him. I wish people would stop trying to make it so… So, why did he inspire such utter bilge? And how do you tell the difference between the nonsense parts and the real parts? As for the day versus back in the day argument - as others have mentioned, Genesis is very explicit about evenings and mornings, and grandpa does not say evening and morning of the day he was back in. Not to mention that you should demonstrate that Hebrew has that same double meaning. Interpreting the Bible according to English overloaded words does not work very well. ---
**Author:** ![sentrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@sentrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sentrix)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/49 "2013-09-16T16:18:59Z")
thank you jonathan chance. my apologies for the comment i was out of line. if anyone wants meat to throw on this bbq about falsifiable claims then look at the new york atheists page on fb. quite an educated read with all matter of supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/50 "2013-09-16T16:29:56Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > I know that in the Bible and I think also the Quran, the books claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old and was created in 7 days. Are there any other falsifiable claims made by these texts? The power of faith? The power of prayer? Those who believe can drink poison and play with deadly snakes without harm? The power to heal the sick? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/51 "2013-09-16T16:34:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually it is if the thing being discussed should have left evidence. For instance, nearly a million Hebrews camping in the desert for 40 years should have left campfires, burial grounds (they pretty much all died before the entry to Canaan) and dessicated poop. The absence of any of this is pretty good evidence for the absence of the hikers. Does dessicated poop really last for literally thousands of years? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/52 "2013-09-16T16:39:38Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > [More evidence](http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/top-ten-biblical-discoveries-in-archaeology-3-jericho/) on the fall of Jericho, 1800-1400 BCE. “ **dating of 1550 BC mainly came from the lack of an expensive type of pottery from Cyprus popular in 1400 BC.** ” So we’ve got one nugget pointing the date. But on that same page, there’s: **All of these previous findings correlate with the biblical narrative: The city was strongly fortified (Joshua 2:5,7,15, 6:5,20). The attack occurred just after harvest time in the spring (Joshua 2:6, 3:15, 5:10). The inhabitants had no opportunity to flee with their food (Joshua 6:1). The siege was short (Joshua 6:15). The walls were leveled, possibly by an earthquake (Joshua 6:20). The city was not plundered (Joshua 6:17-18). The city was burned (Joshua 6:20)** All this saying the biblical account was correct. Alls I’m saying is, that doesn’t appear to be a good example of a falsifiable biblical claim. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/53 "2013-09-16T16:45:40Z")
But that’s only providing you can place Joshua as alive c1550-1400 BCE. As mentioned above, Josephus, in his _Antiquities of the Jews_, V.1.28, places him at 1355-1245 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/54 "2013-09-16T16:57:13Z")
[Matthew 27:51-53?](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:51-53&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. How can there not be any separate account of this at all? Why does something like this only appear in one gospel? Someone would have written about it, after they changed their underwear anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/55 "2013-09-16T17:03:15Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > We need to be aware that the idioms used in everyday writing in days of old were not necessarily ones that we are familiar with - perhaps any reasonable ancient Israelite would have realized that “making the sun stand still” is a metaphor for events that take a long time and don’t seem to be getting anywhere. Except, again, the authors clarify that what they’re talking about is a miracle. And they not only say the sun stood still, but give the amount of time it stood still for, which is hard to square with it just meaning “something took a really long time”. In general, ancient Hebrew literary style involved repeating the same thing twice in two different ways (as with saying something took a day in genesis, and then saying it took a morning and an evening), which doesn’t really leave a lot of room for misunderstood idioms. Plus, more generally, here isn’t really any mystery to solve here. The miracles in the Old Testement are meant to be understood as miracles. And they are there because they were written by an Iron age people, and iron age people believed that miracles and magic happened. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/56 "2013-09-16T17:11:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Does dessicated poop really last for literally thousands of years? We’ve got dinosaur poop. It wouldn’t last everywhere, of course, but the Sinai is the perfect place for preserving it. There would be a lot of it. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/57 "2013-09-16T17:20:29Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > But that’s only providing you can place Joshua as alive c1550-1400 BCE. As mentioned above, Josephus, in his _Antiquities of the Jews_, V.1.28, places him at 1355-1245 BCE. My problem with Josephus is that a lot of his book was based on texts of the events written long after they happened. He wrote a lot of his historical works with seeming artistic license, and some have even suggested that some of the outcomes were rigged as a propaganda ploy against the Jewish War. If you look at Masada (chosen for it being within his own time period), for instance, the Romans break through the outer wall and, upon finding the newly-constructed inner wall that was made of wood and other soft items, the Romans set it ablaze. Then the Romans pulled away and decided to call it a night, being sure to keep a careful watch for Jewish escapees. A speech was also inserted by the leader of the Masada complex into the story, here, which is hard to believe he got from the Roman reports of the incident Come the morning, the Romans marched against and through the breach and found bodies and all of their possessions burned in a giant pile (Despite the Romans also finding a cache of weapons for up to 10,000 soldiers). Through the night, the guards posted to watch for escapees didn’t notice a movement of almost 1,000 people that should have been visible through the breach? No one noticed that a very large fire was started? And why, when you are about to grab victory do you suddenly stop and go back to base camp? There are other troubles with his account, but it seems to make more sense that he was either glossing over facts he didn’t have access to, or he was dramatizing the writings to make for a better reading experience. This is actually common for ancient historians, as they weren’t as fact based in those days. But hailing to their authority kinds leaves me wanting for a better source, especially when they don’t get the actions in their own times recorded so well. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/58 "2013-09-16T17:48:12Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > But that’s only providing you can place Joshua as alive c1550-1400 BCE. As mentioned above, Josephus, in his _Antiquities of the Jews_, V.1.28, places him at 1355-1245 BCE. And even that is assuming that you can place Joshua alive at all. Best we can tell, the supposed conquest never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/59 "2013-09-16T18:12:36Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > [Matthew 27:51-53?](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:51-53&version=NIV) > > How can there not be any separate account of this at all? Why does something like this only appear in one gospel? Someone would have written about it, after they changed their underwear anyway. I’m willing to bet that earthquake is poetic and never literally happened. Ditto with the “massacre of the innocents” by Herod. But the fact neither is mentioned in extant writings of the period isn’t proof. What you have to appreciate, is how limited and few contemporary written sources concerning 1st century Judea are. We know hardly anything about the period from contemporary sources. To take an example, the guy allegedly in charge of the place during the (alleged) death of Jesus - Pontus Pilate - barely rates a mention: he’s discussed by Josephus and has a mention in Tacitus, but that’s about it. Until 1961, there was literally no physical evidence he ever existed. Then, a limestone block was found: > [@](#): > > The first physical evidence relating to Pilate was discovered in 1961, when a block of limestone, the Pilate Stone, was found in the Roman theatre at Caesarea Maritima, the capital of the province of Judaea (Iudaea). Bearing a damaged dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum,[18] the dedication states that he was […]ECTVS IUDA[…] (usually read as praefectus Iudaeae), that is, prefect of Judaea. The early governors of Judaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in AD 44. The inscription was discovered by a group led by Antonio Frova and has been dated to AD 26–37. The inscription is currently housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem, while a replica stands at Caesarea.[19] If a figure of such contemporary importants rates so little mention (at least, that survives), it is hardly a surprise that a massacre or an earthquake isn’t recorded in the surviving record. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952/60 "2013-09-16T18:35:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What you have to appreciate, is how limited and few contemporary written sources concerning 1st century Judea are. We know hardly anything about the period from contemporary sources. One thing people don’t realize about Judea is that it was largely a backwater after the fall of the Monarchy in the 800’s BCE until…well, I honestly can’t recall it being an important region, outside of Jerusalem (to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). Anyway, the point is that most people of the Roman empire didn’t give to shakes of salt about Judea. The Roman province that took the name Judea (Historical Judah/Judea, Isreal/Samaria, and Idumea/Edom) was captured from Syria in ~70-60BCE and was used as to control the overland route to the Egyptian bread basket. By itself, it held little other value for Rome. The tax revenues were fairly miniscule (compared to the rest of Roman tax intake) and it housed a few related religions that were strange to the Romans. The lack of real Roman oversight led to the Jewish War, where the area tried to gain independence from Rome between 65 and 130CE. It was only after this long-term revolt movement started that Rome rolled in and established more than a token bureaucracy/military presence to govern the province. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-falsifiable-claims-do-the-holy-books-make/668952.md?page=4)