# What famous figures were you most surprised to discover were huge assholes? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 6, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109 "2009-04-06T05:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/181 "2009-04-09T07:21:16Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Lindbergh’s record wasn’t as cut-and-dried as you make it here. While he wasn’t a Nazi or a foaming-at-the-mouth anti-semite, neither was he a model of tolerance. For example, here is an excerpt from his diary on the subject of Kristallnacht: > > More from his diary: I didn’t think it was cut and dried. He was a pretty complex guy and had a lot of views that don’t hold up. They weren’t way out there for his time though. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > This lets him off the hook far too easily. For balance, check out _The American Axis_, which looks at the racist and pro-German attitudes of Lindbergh and Henry Ford, and reveals some very ugly facts about both. > > Lindbergh, for one, was a close associate of a controversial French scientist who believed in the inferiority of some races and the need to “eliminate” undesirables from society. Lindbergh went beyond isolationism as far as the Nazis were concerned and was a defeatist and anti-British at a time when the British were struggling alone early in the war to hold back the Nazis. His visits to Germany [went further](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/sfeature/fallen.html) than being impressed by military development: > > _“The organized vitality of Germany was what most impressed me: the unceasing activity of the people, and the convinced dictatorial direction to create the new factories, airfields, and research laboratories…,” Lindbergh recalled in “Autobiography of Values.” His wife drew similar conclusions. “…I have never in my life been so conscious of such a directed force. It is thrilling when seen manifested in the energy, pride, and morale of the people–especially the young people,” she wrote in “The Flower and the Nettle.” By 1938, the Lindberghs were making plans to move to Berlin…_ > > In his role as bigwig in the “America First” isolationist organization, Lindbergh made highly publicized speeches urging America to stay out of the war, and his beliefs made him increasingly unpopular. One particular address (on 9/11/41) was the icing on the cake: > > _With his hero status already greatly tarnished by his philosophical and political beliefs, Lindbergh delivered a speech in Des Moines that fully knocked him off his pedestal. Announcing that it was time to “name names,” Lindbergh decided to identify what he saw as the pressure groups pushing the U.S. into war against Germany. “The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt Administration.” Of the Jews, he went on to say, “Instead of agitating for war, **Jews in this country should be opposing it in every way, for they will be the first to feel its consequences.** Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.”_ > > You can view that as naivete, or loathsome bigotry. I vote for the latter. > > He never seriously repudiated these views. He did discover patriotism (of a sort, anyway) after America entered the war. I don’t see how most of this makes him an asshole. Germany was an impressive place in the Nazi prewar years. Some one brought in and showed they best that could be offered in the mid 30s would be impressed especially given how far down the country had been. It is easy to see now from our perspective that there was a cancer underneath. His view was that war in Europe would be disasterous for all. He stated that it would be worse for the Jews than everybody else. He was right. But since Hitler had his own plans I don’t see how the America First idea would have worked any better. He did not discover patriotism. He was outspoken in his belief’s for what was best for the country. I have no doubt his position was wrong but that does not make him less patriotic. After the war he did not believe in started he immediately volunteered which he thought was his duty as a patriotic American. He was turned down for political reasons. He still found a way to serve with honor and courage with no thought for publicity. For all his faults you can not call him unpatriotic. His views on Jews and probably other races weren’t very enlightened by our standards. But he wasn’t a Nazi sympathizer. He thought he knew what was best for all involved including the Jews. He was subject to a smear campaign at the time by those who were in favor of intervention which included pictures of him using the Bellamy salute. Unfortunately you don’t have to go too far back before you can brand just about anyone as an “asshole” due to their views on race or religious tolerance. I think we are getting better. Maybe I’m just fooling myself ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/182 "2009-04-09T08:40:25Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I was just joking. I’ve never met Harlan Ellison, and he certainly never attacked me. I mean, shoved my face into a urinal and whipped me with a belt? A five-foot-nothing, seventy-four year old man? I’m surprised you actually thought I was serious. No, I was just trying to riff off of the very commonly discussed perception of Ellison as being a jerk. (I doubt anyone would be “surprised” to find that Ellison was an asshole - the surprise would be that he turned out to actually be a really nice guy.) Well, I don’t know anything about him as a person, but I have heard of some asshole-ish celebs, so I took you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/183 "2009-04-09T16:58:32Z")
Evelyn Waugh. A howling snob and military incompetent who nonetheless wrote some amusing novels. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/184 "2009-04-09T22:00:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > As someone stated below about Lawrence, he refuses to participate in “Make a Wish” type events with children. My cousin’s fiance is a pediatric oncologist here in Pittsburgh. One of her patients had one wish-to meet “Big Ben”, and he absolutely refused. Eventually, they had to tell the poor kid he was just a jerk. For the record, Roethlisberger has done Make-A-Wish at least [once](http://www.emqb.com/ben-roethlisberger-make-a-wish-foundation-help-paralyzed-teenager-realize-dream/). He has established a [charitable foundation](http://cms.nflplayers.com/user/template.aspx?fmid=174&lmid=194&pid=1851&type=l) and participates in some [number](http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/college/s_618024.html) of [charitable](http://www.csdecisions.com/article/4138/sheetz-charity-adds-roethlisberger-to-lineup.html) [events](http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=117644). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/185 "2009-04-09T23:13:12Z")
Richard Bach, the author of _Jonathan Livingston Seagull_ and several other books. In his later books he makes himself sound like a spiritual wanderer and playboy who’s unconcerned with material wealth brought by his books. The reality: when he became rich from JLS he divorced his wife, managed to get away with a paltry settlelement, and had virtually no contact for the next several years with her or their _ **six** _ kids. He didn’t attend the funeral of his youngest child (killed in a car crash) or reach out at all to his son Jonathan (named for the bird- really) who was devastated by the death and guilt (he was driving the car at the time fo the accident). His son Jonathan wrote a memoir about growing up in the house with his mom and stepfather and feeling abandoned by his famous dad (who literally wrote his family out of his own several New Age memoirs). Others of his children have no contact with him and will not answer questions about him. When I learned this after reading his “Don’t worry/be happy” “We are all spirit and love and hummingbird auras” “do what you feel like and just be…” I thought "what a huge asshole. Yeah… you do that and write glurge about your second wife being your soulmate and reincarnation partner while your ex wife is out busting her hump to take care of the tribe of kids you abandoned… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/186 "2009-04-10T05:12:30Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t see how most of this makes (Lindbergh) an asshole. Germany was an impressive place in the Nazi prewar years. Some one brought in and showed they best that could be offered in the mid 30s would be impressed especially given how far down the country had been. It is easy to see now from our perspective that there was a cancer underneath. There was plenty of evidence leading well up into the early '40s and covering the period when Lindbergh was publicly enthusiastic about Nazi Germany, when the cancer was quite evident. It was damn obvious years before he got his medal from Goering (the one he refused to return). > [@](#): > > His view was that war in Europe would be disasterous for all. He stated that it would be worse for the Jews than everybody else. He was right. There is an especially vile suggestion in his remarks that the American Jews he was accusing of promoting war would be the first to suffer. > [@](#): > > For all his faults you can not call him unpatriotic. He had [a very qualified sort of patriotism](http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/01/arts/review-televison-lindbergh-s-soaring-and-plunge.html). _"Although President Franklin D. Roosevelt turned down Lindbergh’s offer of service after Pearl Harbor, he eventually flew combat missions in the Pacific in 1944 and performed bravely. But he never acknowledged the special horrors committed by the Nazis except to say, ‘‘What the German has done to the Jew in Europe, we are doing to the Jap in Asia.’’_ Nice. And I have never heard of him repudiating his regularly expressed views prior to U.S. entry into the war “that the real threat to the United States came from peoples of ‘‘inferior blood’’ in Asia, Africa and Russia.” Sorry, I just can’t view him as a misunderstood nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/187 "2009-04-10T10:12:20Z")
Lloyd George. He was painted as the person who won the Great War for the UK, he was really a self serving rat, a defeatist in WW2, and a womaniser. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/188 "2009-04-10T10:24:41Z")
I have heard Stevie Wonder has ended up being pretty arrogant and prideful, but that’s all second-hand hearsay. If it’s true, I’d be surprised, because I would think he’d be the nicest guy. I was surprised about Michael Richards going off on his racist rant. Having done improv comedy, though, I kind of understand the Michael Richards thing a bit. Not the racism, I mean, but just how an improv performance can go horribly wrong. If you’ve never done improv then you probably won’t understand at all. But if you have, you’re probably familiar with that mindset of being onstage, performance flopping, frantically grabbing at straws for any gag that might shock/surprise/amuse the audience, coming up with something bad, and deciding in a split second whether to drop it or try to run with it. It would never happen in normal conversation, but in that adrenaline-fueled stream-of-consciousness moment of stage performance, anything can come out. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/189 "2009-04-10T10:27:38Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Lloyd George. He was painted as the person who won the Great War for the UK, he was really a self serving rat, a defeatist in WW2, and a womaniser. And he sold gongs and K’s shamelessly, and traded in Marconi stock on inside knowledge (admittedly, most City people wouldn’t have considered that a crime at all at that time) ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/190 "2009-04-10T10:44:50Z")
I don’t want to defend Haig, but Lloyd-George also kept reinforcements home in the UK rather than sending them to Haig. The war could have been over earlier if he didn’t have that policy. He also lied about that, and stated that he was responsible for setting up the convoy system - the details were worked out by Jellicoe. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/191 "2009-04-10T11:19:04Z")
Certainly no one should place reliance on his mendacious _War Memoirs_ as an objective record of what passed. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/192 "2009-04-10T13:02:36Z")
You can put [Bruce Springsteen](http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/04/springsteen.html) on that list. Word up Patti Scialfa: If you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you are married to a man who will cheat on his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/193 "2009-04-10T13:27:00Z")
In the spectrum of major-league asshole-ism, cheating on your wife hardly registers; thousands of people have done it, and continue to do it. Mean, cheapass asshole-ism is what we are looking for here. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/194 "2009-04-10T14:02:33Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I don’t want to defend Haig, but Lloyd-George also kept reinforcements home in the UK rather than sending them to Haig. The war could have been over earlier if he didn’t have that policy. …or, of course, those troops could have just been uselessly slaughtered like all the other troops Haig had been given. Lloyd George had his fair share of flaws, but I’m thinking he was right on that one. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/195 "2009-04-10T14:33:46Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > I was surprised about Michael Richards going off on his racist rant. > > Having done improv comedy, though, I kind of understand the Michael Richards thing a bit. Not the racism, I mean, but just how an improv performance can go horribly wrong. If you’ve never done improv then you probably won’t understand at all. But if you have, you’re probably familiar with that mindset of being onstage, performance flopping, frantically grabbing at straws for any gag that might shock/surprise/amuse the audience, coming up with something bad, and deciding in a split second whether to drop it or try to run with it. It would never happen in normal conversation, but in that adrenaline-fueled stream-of-consciousness moment of stage performance, anything can come out. I’ve never done improv comedy, but I remember thinking that what you describe was probably what happened at the time of the whole brouhaha. I didn’t pay much attention to it either way, though. RR ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/196 "2009-04-10T16:58:11Z")
I agree with Rocketeer. Keeping soldiers away from Haig was hardly a character flaw. Lloyd George probably saved thousands of men from being uselessly killed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/197 "2009-04-10T17:48:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You are a post Vatican II Catholic. The “softer” church. > > However, if you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven (a belief I was taught as a post Vatican II Catholic) the best non-Christians are going to do is purgatory. At least the Catholics have purgatory, which the nuns assured me was not a bad place for Jews… Yep-I was born in 1978, and attended Catholic school from 1983-1992. I thought it was pretty well known that Lloyd George was a dick. Fascinating individual, but still a dick. And I’m still going to believe my cousin’s fiance who’s met the guy, and the view around here in Pittsburgh-the guy’s known to be an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/198 "2009-04-10T20:40:36Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I don’t want to defend Haig, but Lloyd-George also kept reinforcements home in the UK rather than sending them to Haig. The war could have been over earlier if he didn’t have that policy. He also lied about that, and stated that he was responsible for setting up the convoy system - the details were worked out by Jellicoe. What’s the source for the “lack of reinforcements prolonged the war” argument? Seems it could be argued that Haig having fewer men meant that much less cannon fodder sacrificed to no end. I’m not sure what to believe about Lloyd George and the convoy system. I’ve seen both ends of the argument (the Royal Navy leaders were holding back and LG prodded them into instituting the convoy system more rapidly than they wanted to, vs. LG grandstanding over something that was about to happen even without his input. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/199 "2009-04-11T11:03:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree with Rocketeer. Keeping soldiers away from Haig was hardly a character flaw. Lloyd George probably saved thousands of men from being uselessly killed. If by “men” you mean Germans, then yes. On the other hand, the British Army learnt its lessons in 1916-17, and in 1918, the Hundred Days Campaign was the most decisive and continious series of victories in the history of the British Army. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109/200 "2009-04-11T11:14:35Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What’s the source for the “lack of reinforcements prolonged the war” argument? Seems it could be argued that Haig having fewer men meant that much less cannon fodder sacrificed to no end. > > I’m not sure what to believe about Lloyd George and the convoy system. I’ve seen both ends of the argument (the Royal Navy leaders were holding back and LG prodded them into instituting the convoy system more rapidly than they wanted to, vs. LG grandstanding over something that was about to happen even without his input. Try reading “The Great war Generals on the Western Front” by Robin Neillands. I have said I am not an apologist for Haig, but his forces were not reinforced sufficiently. And perhaps the reinforcements would have been handy for defence as well in Operation Michael? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-famous-figures-were-you-most-surprised-to-discover-were-huge-assholes/492109.md?page=11)