What flaws/evils are unique to Christianity?

Great Debates
21

See, you lost me there. (Part of it may be that I’m having trouble parsing your first sentance - you don’t really mean that the Jews believe in the New Testament or the New Covenant, do you?)

The Jews, having separated themselves (via their purity, worship and dietary laws) from the non-Jews, didn’t neccessarily follow the same path and develop the same traits. They view themselves as the Chosen People and are in fact hard to break into and convert if you’re not born one (Not impossible, but a lot harder than the Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example). They’re certainly not actively looking for converts. The laws of “their” G-d don’t apply to the rest of us, and they’re not concerned with “saving” us.

Christianity developed between Judaism and Islam. So what I was saying was that some traits that may have been developed during early Christianity but after Judaism (prostlytizing, believe what we do our we’ll kill you and/or you’ll suffer everlasting torment, don’t wear white after Labor Day) could have been passed onto Islam.

Early Muslims, after hearing and accepting Muhammad’s teachings, perhaps did not discard the Christian idea that they were right, everyone else was wrong and should die and suffer torment for it. But my idea is that these traits were present when they were still Christians; they did not develop them independantly of Christianity. IANA religious historian, just wondering. If you say they developed from non-Christian paganism, that might be a different take on it. But that book doesn’t seem the most credible source. As a pagan myself, I don’t find the accusation of pagan origins all that credible *or *damning. It’s often used by lazy writers who are appealing to emotionality (pagan=bad) without finding intellectual or historical support for their assertations.

What would settle it would be accurate historical research finding that Christians before 600 AD were all peaceful, self-contained and religiously open-minded folks, and that these other traits could not have been bequeathed on Islam by Christianity but must have come from an outside source.

Whether or not these traits are “flaws” is open to debate, of course. But IMHO and YMMV, it bugs the shit out of me when people won’t let me believe what I believe in peace. I consider these traits flaws. And I do think that Christianity *and *Islam are together unique among the major religions still around today in perpetuating them, at least in scope.

But I haven’t heard of a Christian flaw that didn’t appear also in Islam, so to answer the OP, I don’t believe there are flaws that are unique to Christianity.

22

We agree. Islam comes from both, so it shares the flaws.

23

Actually, it’s my understanding that the Arabs were pagans prior to Muhammad. They worshipped various tribal gods (the Kaaba is actually originally a holdover from pagan days).

24

[QUOTE=Scott_plaid]
Yeah, no significant religious groups. But where would they have been if not for christiani—

You still haven’t named any of these groups that were purportedly “wiped out” by Christianity.

Pantheon worship died out. The burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate that it was.

So please, tell me… Where is your evidence that Christianity wiped out all the worshipers of Jupiter and Zeus? Remember, you made the claim. The burden of proof is firmly on your shoulders.

Now, one could argue that the spread of Christianity supplanted the worship of Greco-Roman gods. If we grant that overly simplistic explanation, then it would still be wrong to say that Christianity is successful because it eradicated pantheon worship. Quite the opposite; it would imply that pantheon worship died because Christianity was so successful.

25

Didn’t I say that a second ago?

Oh, and I believe I found an evil unique to christianity, at least to those who believe in the movie, the Passion of the Zombies, and all it represents. Not that I am saying this argument applies to the belifs of many who post here, just that it criticizes a belief held by those who call themselves christians :

J.C’s “sacrifice”

Anyway you look at it, it’s creepy. It involves the human sacrifice of earlier religions, involves a false concept that if you do something wrong, it’s ok for someone else to suffer for it, AND add masochism to the score. Oh, and I don’t see Musselmen, or jews tryint to twist their heads around the idea of “two, two, two gods in one!”, which I believe might be harmful to the logic that a young child learns.

For more criticism of Jeez’s sacrifice, see the following:
http://www.thehappyheretic.com/4-97.htm

26

Let me rephrase what I said there. I should more properly say,

“Pantheon worship diedout. The burden of proof rests on you to demonstrate that it was ‘wiped out’ by Christianity.”

Frankly, I think you’re pulling claims out of thin air.

27

Actually, whereas the political realm of Islam spread through the sword, the religion of Islam spread through very active missionary work, especially by Sufis. As a matter of fact, this is why there are so many Islamic sects in South Asia: it seems that nearly every tariqah sent some emissary or another there. A prominent example of this are the Isma’ilis (Nizari and Musta’li): emissaries from both strains went to South Asia and converted whole groups, which is why people are often wont to call Nizari Isma’ilis “Khojas” and Musta’li Daudi Isma’ilis “Bohras” (after the groups that converted).

WRS

28

Ahem.

Pagan services became punishable by death in 356.
Also, the world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415. Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded

In 1208 Pope Innocent III decreed that a Catholic sect known as the Albigenses should be destroyed, all murdered, because they held heretical views such as the idea that Jesus was only an angel. The Crusading soldiers swept through southern France searching for these heretics. When they got to the city of Beziers, that was known to host many of the Albigenses, they asked a papal representative how they could distinguish the heretics from the truly faithful. The answer: “Kill them all. God will know His own.”

All the pagan killing was certainly the main fact in taking pagan religions of the maps. In addition, the wiping out of christian heretics heretics was certainly a wiping out of a rival religion.

29

Islam also engaged in and still engages in violence against what are considered to be heterodox sects. Sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shi’as has been common since the formation of the Shi’a sect. It is not uncommon for Sunni bands to go around houses in Karachi, Pakistan, demanding the family to recite the shahadah, and then slaughtering them all if they recited the wrong one (i.e., they said the Shi’a shahadah).

Another example of anti-heterodox violence is what I mentioned before: the Muta’zilite and anti-Muta’zilite minhas.

Also, let us not forget the Wars of Riddah (Apostasy). After Muhammad died, some tribes seceded from the Muslim polity, viewing their allegiance to it as a deal made with Muhammad, not with the Islamic religion. Once Muhammad died, their reason to stay also died. But Abu Bakr launched a massive campaign to force them to remain in the system: so he reunited by war what areas Muhammad had previously united mainly by marriage.

Also, I would like to mention the wholesale massacre of Jews at Khaybar. Once Muhammad had secured his position as undisputed ruler, after absorbing the rest of the Qureish, he accused the Jews (who fled to Khaybar) of violating the Treaty of Hudaibiyyah and had them all slaughtered.

(In this day of anti-Jewish rhetoric, Muslims threaten Jews with a repeat of Khaybar, i.e., a fullscale annihilation of the Jews. Sound familiar to anyone? Final Solution, anyone?)

Futhermore, there are no traces anyone of the ancient Arab pagan religion. Just as Christianity is accused of wiping out European paganism, Islam wiped out Arab paganism. Nowadays, threatened are Christian sects in Muslim lands.

WRS

30

Scott_plaid, you still haven’t defended your assertion that Christianity “wiped out” the worshippers of Zeus, Jupiter and company. So please, where is your source for this remarkable information.

Which, even if true, is not the same thing as wiping out a rival religion.

Again, neither of those examples are the same thing as wiping out rival religions. Make no mistake; these were detestable acts. However, neither of these cases amount to the total annihilation of a rival faith.

I’ll grant you the Albigenses, but by your own wording, this was a Catholic sect. Moreover, this was a relatively minor group, and thus, hardly subsantiates your assertion that Christianity succeeded because it slaughtered off its rival religions.

Nope. Killing heretics was a detestable Catholic abomination, but it is not the same thing as wiping these people completely off the face of the Earth. The only example you’ve given so far is the Albigenses, and even that example fails to demonstrate your point.

31

In post fifteen I said:

Now, I am about to google the term “wipe out” +exterminate" to see if a socially accepted view of the concept of wiping a group out means what you seem to mean, or simply killing almost all members, ensuring that all that remaining survivors stop doing it.

I guess not. Ok, I would say that the christians have wages a war of extermination against rival religious groups, such as pagans, wiccans, druids, heretical christian spin off groups, etc., and has been largely successful. Is that better?

http://www.legionxxiv.org/imperialtimeline/

It’s a supporting detail, ya doink.

Ok, so it was simply a horrific amount of slaughter and intimidation.

I call em’ christian, but who know if I am right? After all, I just googled the words “Are catholics christians” and found there is a large amount of arguments among misc. groups whether or not one group or another is christian, so maybe they were not. Anyway, they certainly seem to be a religious group wiped out by christians.

I don’t see how. It seems to fit your strict definition to me. I already gave up my huge claim to them wiping out groups. I could point to the slaughter of pagan groups from pre-christian Angleland, but I guess you would point out hedge witches as proof those religions still exist.

Addendum: I suppose I spoke too soon. Wiccan exist today. Wiccans existed back then. However, looking at wiccan webpages, it appearse that modern wiccans are simply a hodgepodge of modern interpretations of pagan beliefs, and can not be called a real continuation of wicca. Thus, I present to you a group exterminated by christians.

32

There was never a historical faith called “wicca”. The great slaughter of witches in the 17th century in particular ( during the height of the Counter-Reformation and the Thirty Years War ) is unlikely to have resulted in the death of many, if any, actual pagans. More just set-up innocents ( there is a lot of evidence that some of the most gruesome slaughters were financially motivated ) or else wise women that practiced a plethora of old folk traditions, some perhaps with pagan roots, but probably most all of them nominal Christians.

Christian rulers + church hiearchies did indeed work to stamp out paganism and heresy where they could, with particular brutality in areas like the Baltic region or the aforementioned Albigensian Crusade. However JThunder is probably technically correct that sheer religiously motivated slaughter by itself was only rarely completely successful in suppressing rival faiths. Rather it was a combination of tactics and a confluence events, including, but not limited to suppression, that caused the slow death of European paganism. Conversion of rulers for political gain was actually among the most common sources of pagan decline ( the immediate converts only rarely were concerned with suppression of their pagan subjects, but with a new paradigm in place in the halls of power a steady top-down conversion process would begin ).

That said while actual out and out extermination wasn’t common, suppression certainly was in most areas. Charlemagne in Saxony or Henry the Lion in Pomerania are good examples to add to the Teutonic Knights of Christian rulers that set about to systematically destroy paganism in newly conquered lands with fair success.

  • Tamerlane
33

All that aside, does anyone disagree with what I said in post 25:

as well as post 19, as long as I add the following. Since many other groups have persecuted pagans, I would add to the following to the end of the first sentence, " imprisoned and otherwise silenced, to such an extreme degree.:

34

Ah, but has been pointed out, that is not unique ( let alone not universal in Christianity ).

How are you defining “Literalist Christianity”? What is “non-literalist”? Are the Monophysite churches non-literalist? They have certainly been around for a good long while now.

  • Tamerlane
35

I’d say it is difficult to make an argument for uniqueness, if it comes down to a dispute over relative degree :).

  • Tamerlane
36

Yeah, I would definitely say it is different by degree, so how about thoughts on post 25? You know, the one where I say that the whole idea of Christ’s sacrifice and anything linked to it is an evil of christianity?

37

http://india.coolatlanta.com/GreatPages/sudheer/book2/buddhism.html

“Thus in Buddhism, India gave birth to a major international religion, while the Hindus continued their way. Buddhism was the world’s first missionary religion and won its triumphs through missionary activity.”

38

I did not know that. Thanks. Are they still missionaries? To be fair, my only experience with Buddhists has been American ones or visiting ones from foreign countries. They’re often happy to talk about their religion, but I’ve never had one tell me I should become one. I suppose they could be construed as missionaries in that they are trying to raise awareness of their ideas, but certainly not in a “believe what we say or you’ll suffer everlasting torment” sort of way.

39

I don’t know that Christianity had anything to do with wiping out the Essenes. I’m pretty sure they died out on their own.

I’m also curious as to what you mean by “literal Christianity”?

40

Well, self-sacrifice for the sake of the faithful is hardly a Christianity-only belief. Many Shi’a for example consider Husayn’s matyrdom to have been not the result of a failed insurrection ( though it was that too ) but a deliberate sacrifice ( he knew he would be doomed to failure ) to rouse the sceptical and lazy from their inertia.

As to whether Jesus’ matyrdom is a unique ‘evil’ because of the concept that it promotes masochism and the principal of allowing others to suffer for your sins…well, I think that is a bit of a stretch. Though certainly debateable, you haven’t convinced me on that one :slight_smile:

  • Tamerlane