# What four players would you put on your NBA Mount Rushmore? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200 "2014-02-13T00:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/41 "2014-02-15T05:13:46Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > In order of worthiness: > > 1. Michael Jordan > 2. Magic Johnson > 3. Larry Bird > 4. Kobe Bryant > > It’s pretty straightforward for me. And I don’t like Kobe, by the way. I just think he deserves it. As I was concerned about above, explain to me the Larry Bird pick, and how he could match up better than Wilt or Kareem or Lebron. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/42 "2014-02-15T05:32:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Wouldn’t that show up on his assists numbers, if that were true? As far as I can tell, he was 36th in career assists, and 43rd in assists per game. Nice, but nothing that would make me consider him one of the greatest passers of all time. I’ll also point out that Lebron is 29th, 7 spots ahead of Bird in assists per game. He was white? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/43 "2014-02-15T07:12:00Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > He was white? That helped, but I think Bird rates as high as he does because of his symbolic importance, contributions to the success of the NBA, and him being a foil to Magic. Bird was one of the first guys with major endorsements and video games, and he helped usher in the modern era. I don’t think his stats stand up to great scrutiny, but he undoubtably did more for the NBA than guys like Wilt or Kareem even though they were superior players. That said, stats don’t capture everything, and he was a great player in his own right. Keep in mind that amount Rushmore isn’t necessarily the 4 greatest presidents. It’s more so good, meaningful ones. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/44 "2014-02-15T10:16:13Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > That helped, but I think Bird rates as high as he does because of his symbolic importance, contributions to the success of the NBA, and him being a foil to Magic. Bird was one of the first guys with major endorsements and video games, and he helped usher in the modern era. > > I don’t think his stats stand up to great scrutiny, but he undoubtably did more for the NBA than guys like Wilt or Kareem even though they were superior players. That said, stats don’t capture everything, and he was a great player in his own right. > > Keep in mind that amount Rushmore isn’t necessarily the 4 greatest presidents. It’s more so good, meaningful ones. “amount Rushmore!?!!?” 😉 I know what you meant. My jibe about Bird being white was simply that…a stupid poke in the eye. His stats don’t measure up to today’s players, but damn…there was never a sweeter fundamental bounce pass in all of b-ball. Yeah, I said it. PASSING. The art of a team game that’s almost completely lost on this current crop of fellows in their “let’s stand around and watch the star score baskets”. I am allowing my hatred of the current NBA color my opinion. There was never a better pure passer than the Bird. Keep your Jason Kidd, your white chocolate, whatever. Nobody was as devoted to the team distribution as him. AND he was a forward AND he also scored like a demon when necessary. Fortunately, he often passed to that Alan Alda stretched taffy guy. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/45 "2014-02-15T14:38:49Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Fortunately, he often passed to that Alan Alda stretched taffy guy. That is the best description of Kevin McHale I’ve ever seen, and it’s the winner by a mile. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/46 "2014-02-15T16:46:20Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Wouldn’t that show up on his assists numbers, if that were true? As far as I can tell, he was 36th in career assists, and 43rd in assists per game. Nice, but nothing that would make me consider him one of the greatest passers of all time. I’ll also point out that Lebron is 29th, 7 spots ahead of Bird in assists per game. I agree that Bird is a touch over-rated, but you have to bear in mind that his counting stats are hampered by his relatively short career. Back problems limited his effectiveness, cost him playing time (6 games in the '88-'89 season, 60 in '90-'91, and 45 in '91-'92), and ultimately forced him to retire after just 13 seasons. How much that should affect his historical ranking depends on how you weight peak greatness vs. total greatness. At his peak, Bird was certainly great. Re: assists per game…yes, he’s 36th…but how many forwards rank above him? 1, Lebron James. Those two are the best passing forwards of all time, hands down. That doesn’t allow them to rack up assists like a point guard, especially when Bird and James had such a scoring burden to carry. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yeah, I said it. PASSING. The art of a team game that’s almost completely lost on this current crop of fellows in their “let’s stand around and watch the star score baskets”. Time for a humorless lecture! You must not be watching the current NBA, because it’s not at all based around star players gunning for shots. [The number of 20-point scorers has dropped by two thirds since 2008.](http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/53534/where-have-all-the-gunners-gone) And yet, [points per game](http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) barely changed. What happened? More guys taking shots and scoring, in response to modern NBA defenses that overload the strong side of the floor with an extra defender, and can only be beaten by moving the ball from side to side. The NBA isn’t Allen Iverson isolations anymore, it’s a sophisticated, whirring ballet of multiple pick and rolls, back-cuts, and down screens where everyone’s involved in the offense, because with the demise of the illegal defense rule, you can’t just have your best guy go one-on-one anymore. Watch a Miami, San Antonio, OKC, Portland, Indiana, or Golden State game sometime, it’s marvelous to behold, and Lebron & the Heat are on the bleeding edge of the new-look NBA. For my Mount Rushmore, I’m only interested in two-way players. Sorry, Bird & Magic, I need better defense. Sorry, Russell, I need better offense. Basketball is a two-way game. I’m going with: Jordan Chamberlain Duncan James ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/47 "2014-02-15T17:09:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I agree that Bird is a touch over-rated, but you have to bear in mind that his counting stats are hampered by his relatively short career. Back problems limited his effectiveness, cost him playing time (6 games in the '88-'89 season, 60 in '90-'91, and 45 in '91-'92), and ultimately forced him to retire after just 13 seasons. How much that should affect his historical ranking depends on how you weight peak greatness vs. total greatness. At his peak, Bird was certainly great. Certainly, but the same could be said about a vast majority of players in the NBA, at their best, they were better than the rest of their career. Bird in the '84-85 season was probably the best of his career, finishing second in minutes played, second in points, 2nd in 3 point field goal percentage, and 2nd in points per game. Very, very good. But top 5 of all time? No way. > [@Human Action](#): > > Re: assists per game…yes, he’s 36th…but how many forwards rank above him? 1, Lebron James. Those two are the best passing forwards of all time, hands down. That doesn’t allow them to rack up assists like a point guard, especially when Bird and James had such a scoring burden to carry. So let’s put Lebron on Mount Rushmore and not Bird. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/48 "2014-02-15T17:11:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For my Mount Rushmore, I’m only interested in two-way players. Sorry, Bird & Magic, I need better defense. Sorry, Russell, I need better offense. Basketball is a two-way game. I’m going with: > > Jordan > Chamberlain > Duncan > James I’d be hard pressed to argue with that, especially the awareness of the defensive presence and versatility that Lebron James brings to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/49 "2014-02-15T17:29:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Certainly, but the same could be said about a vast majority of players in the NBA, at their best, they were better than the rest of their career. Bird in the '84-85 season was probably the best of his career, finishing second in minutes played, second in points, 2nd in 3 point field goal percentage, and 2nd in points per game. Very, very good. But top 5 of all time? No way. Great, but not top 5, agreed. His defense alone knocks him out of the top 5. > [@Hamlet](#): > > So let’s put Lebron on Mount Rushmore and not Bird. Fine by me! Just saying, pointing to Bird’s ranking in career assists per game to make the case that he wasn’t among the greatest passers of all time is flawed, because of the position he played. > [@Hamlet](#): > > I’d be hard pressed to argue with that, especially the awareness of the defensive presence and versatility that Lebron James brings to the table. LeBron might well be the most versatile player of all time, on offense and defense, particularly since coming to Miami and becoming a 40% 3-point shooter and arguably [the best post scorer in the league](http://grantland.com/the-triangle/dispelling-the-blake-griffin-myths/) (he’s #1 in points per possession on post-ups that end with him shooting, drawing a foul, or turning the ball over.) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/50 "2014-02-15T17:30:58Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > That is the best description of Kevin McHale I’ve ever seen, and it’s the winner by a mile. I’m glad somebody got it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/51 "2014-02-15T17:33:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Time for a humorless lecture! You must not be watching the current NBA, because it’s not at all based around star players gunning for shots. [The number of 20-point scorers has dropped by two thirds since 2008.](http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/53534/where-have-all-the-gunners-gone) And yet, [points per game](http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) barely changed. What happened? More guys taking shots and scoring, in response to modern NBA defenses that overload the strong side of the floor with an extra defender, and can only be beaten by moving the ball from side to side. The NBA isn’t Allen Iverson isolations anymore, it’s a sophisticated, whirring ballet of multiple pick and rolls, back-cuts, and down screens where everyone’s involved in the offense, because with the demise of the illegal defense rule, you can’t just have your best guy go one-on-one anymore. Watch a Miami, San Antonio, OKC, Portland, Indiana, or Golden State game sometime, it’s marvelous to behold, and Lebron & the Heat are on the bleeding edge of the new-look NBA. Maybe I need give the NBA another whirl. I admit I haven’t watched it in over a decade. I used to LOVE it back in the 80’s and 90’s. I confess aside from maybe following some of my UK guys I pretty much stopped watching after Jordan retired. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/52 "2014-02-15T17:54:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > As I was concerned about above, explain to me the Larry Bird pick, and how he could match up better than Wilt or Kareem or Lebron. Larry Bird is there because there is no one you would more want to have the ball in a key situation than him. I remember reading an interview years ago with…someone(Jordan? Magic) and they asked who would you want on your team if you could have anyone in NBA history. They listed Larry Bird because of how amazing he was in a clutch situations. Anyway, he is a personal favorite as well, though I couldn’t stand him at times growing up. I was a Piston fan and the guy drove us nuts. [This still pisses me off.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNpJXDPnQTE) ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/53 "2014-02-15T18:05:21Z")
If LeBron wins another ring, I’ll give him the edge over Wilt. Both are dominant players, but LeBron is dominant in a much more competitive era. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/54 "2014-02-15T18:12:10Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Larry Bird is there because there is no one you would more want to have the ball in a key situation than him. Is there any possible way to measure this? Is there any reason, outside of perception biases, to think that Wilt, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, or anyone else who has been mentioned is somewhat lacking in the “key situations”? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/55 "2014-02-15T18:15:01Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there any possible way to measure this? Nope. It is just Mount Rushmore, though, not a measurable thing. Who decided what is on the actual Mount Rushmore? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/56 "2014-02-15T18:28:02Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Maybe I need give the NBA another whirl. I admit I haven’t watched it in over a decade. I used to LOVE it back in the 80’s and 90’s. I confess aside from maybe following some of my UK guys I pretty much stopped watching after Jordan retired. The post-Jordan era was pretty rough, the league got ugly there for a little while, overwhelmed high school age kids using clutch-and-grab defense and isolation-based offense is very tough to watch. The league removed the illegal defense rule in 2001, prohibited hand-checking in 2004, and prohibited drafting right out of high school in 2005. The result is world-class basketball. The antithesis of the 4 guys watch the star score baskets approach would be the San Antonio Spurs, defending Western Conference champs and currently in 2nd place in the West. [Their starters average](http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html) between 7.4 and 14 shots per game…nobody moves the ball like they do. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/57 "2014-02-15T20:53:06Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Larry Bird is there because there is no one you would more want to have the ball in a key situation than him. I remember reading an interview years ago with…someone(Jordan? Magic) and they asked who would you want on your team if you could have anyone in NBA history. They listed Larry Bird because of how amazing he was in a clutch situations. > > Anyway, he is a personal favorite as well, though I couldn’t stand him at times growing up. I was a Piston fan and the guy drove us nuts. > > [This still pisses me off.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNpJXDPnQTE) Knew EXACTLY what the clip was gonna be! ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/58 "2014-02-15T20:56:27Z")
Wilt would point out that league changed rules explicitly to lessen his dominance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/59 "2014-02-16T21:52:58Z")
Jordan, Magic… I’m just about stumped here. Two out of Duncan/Russell/Chamberlain? If we’re looking for a way to fit LeBron into the top four (I think that’s entirely plausible), he’s most similar to Magic or - in his own version - Robertson, right? > [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there any possible way to measure this? Is there any reason, outside of perception biases, to think that Wilt, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, or anyone else who has been mentioned is somewhat lacking in the “key situations”? Somewhat, yes: you can track how a player performs in specific situations, like if his team is down by five points or fewer with five minutes left in the game. It’s not totally exact but at least it’s something. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Maybe I need give the NBA another whirl. I admit I haven’t watched it in over a decade. I used to LOVE it back in the 80’s and 90’s. I confess aside from maybe following some of my UK guys I pretty much stopped watching after Jordan retired. I hope it’s not too rude if I say I 100% saw this coming. Yes, it’s a different era - even though I think Iverson gets the shaft a little bit in these discussions; he was a great player for a while despite the ballhogging and his personal failings - and LeBron himself is a poster child for a period of more team-oriented play. He’s always been an amazing passer who likes to get the rest of the team involved. He’s a huge forward who averages six or seven assists a game and scores a lot of points while taking a minimum number of bad shots (his shooting percentages these days are crazy). If you want unselfish, what more can you ask for? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200/60 "2014-02-16T23:27:39Z")
Not if he retired today, but assuming a normal career trajectory, LeBron should get on. My first thought was Russell-Magic-Jordan-LeBron, and upon reflection I can’t find a compelling reason to change that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-four-players-would-you-put-on-your-nba-mount-rushmore/681200.md?page=4)