I asked before, is there any evidence for this perception? Me, I’d rather Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Tim Duncan, Lebron, or even Kevin Durant. Give me a reason to think that Bird is somehow more special at last second shots.
One of them even broke into his home and took a shit on his bed.
Next time you’re in Boston, go into the Garden and look up at the rafters.
Cavs will have a lot more cap flexibility this offseason than Miami will. They have picks, Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, and Jarrett Jack are trade assets, and they have opt outs on Varejao, Earl Clark, and Alonzo Gee. Oh, and Anthony Bennett may be turning the corner. Yeah, that Anthony Bennett. So I don’t think the Cavs are in that bad of shape going forward.
Of course, you can’t discount the veteran rapport the Heat have. But Wade is clearly in decline, and it’s all going to come down to him. If Miami wins it all again and he tells LeBron that he can keep it going, I think they bring the gang back together. That’s probably the most likely scenario. But you never know. He might decide LA would be a fun place to live for awhile.
MLB doesn’t have a salary cap. And it’s strange to claim that spending hasn’t kept pace with the television money. How many high payroll teams playing in front of half empty stadiums do you need to see? And there’s no way a team like Utah could compete with a team like the Knicks and their $280 million in revenue. According to Forbes, 4 teams ended up in the red last year, and this is with the new CBA and revenue sharing. For better or worse, if the NBA wants 30 franchises, then they have to cap player salaries.
How much more would you have to be offered to exchange Miami’s winters for Cleveland’s?
Oops. OK, in keeping with my preference to leave room for someone whose significance to the game wasn’t necessarily as a player, let’s go with Red Auerbach, cigar included. And for pretty much the same reasons that Wooden would be on the NCAA mountain.
You can call me a homer, but only if you can explain why somebody else mattered more.
“What four players would you put on your NBA Mount Rushmore?”
Relative to the rest of the league, they are. How many teams would exchange rosters & future picks with Cleveland right now? Milwaukee, possibly Sacramento, (fellow teams that are trying to improve in the very short term without much of a plan) and that’s about it. Other bad teams (Philly, Utah, Orlando, Boston, the Lakers) are better positioned for the future, and Cleveland has no ability to join the ranks of the good teams unless LeBron (or another top-tier free agent, which is equally unlikely) signs there. And why would he?
Is this a meta thing?
I asked for evidence supporting the idea that Larry Bird is somehow more clutch than any of the other players mentioned in this this thread and you respond with “Yeah, but the Celtics have won a lot of Championships!” That kind of post deserves to be on the Mount Rushmore of Inane Non Sequiturs.
Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, and LeBron
No, a discussion of intangibles. The fact that you are offended by the concept that they’re real nonetheless is of little value to the discussion.
The thing is, saying a guy is worthy because he hits the big time shots isn’t an intangible. It’s very tangible. One that, if you had the inclination to support your preconceptions, you might be able to support with other tangible things like statistics. The fact you don’t, or can’t, and instead insist that making baskets in the clutch is somehow an intangible, makes it clear you have no concept of what you are talking about.
I’m not offended in the least, I’m asking for you to support your assertion. You haven’t, so now I know what kind of credence to give your opinion on things like basketball … nothing.
And I still don’t get how the Celtics’ 14 championships without Bird somehow make him a better shooter. That must be one of those “intangibles”.
The more that I follow this thread, and see other’s quartets, I am further convinced of Olajuwan’s presence in mine. I feel that he has made the longest lasting impression on today’s game, among the other bigs; mainly because he really redefined low post footwork. Russell and Wilt and Kareem were all outstanding talents, but if I had to pick one of them in their prime, I’m going with The Dream - the only player in NBA history to win league MVP, Finals MVP, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season.
I’m not sure why the confluence of awards in one year is more important than accumulating those awards multiple times over your career, especially when one of the awards (Defensive player of the year) didn’t exist for Wilt, Kareem, or Russell to win.
If Olajuwan’s '80s Houston team hadn’t disintegrated due to cocaine and Sampson’s back injury, they’d have seized control of the West from the Lakers, won a few championships, and Hakeem would be mentioned in the same breath as Bird and Magic.
Just think about the breaks each guy got:
Bird’s team got him because only the Celtics realized they could disregard the commissioner and draft him anyway. They traded the pick that became Joe Barry Carroll for Robert Parish and the pick that became Kevin McHale. They traded Rick Robey for Dennis Johnson. They got a fluke healthy season out of Bill Walton.
Magic’s team got him because New Orleans threw the bank at Gail Goodrich, and had to give up their first round pick as compensation. They got James Worthy because Ted Stepien traded Cleveland’s 1982 first round pick for Dan Ford. They got Kareem because L.A. had more Muslims than Milwaukee did.
Meanwhile, Olajuwon’s losing teammates to injury and drug suspensions.
I don’t remember the part about “disregard(ing) the commissioner.” Bird was draft eligible, but stated he was going to play his senior year. The Celtics used the 6th overall pick to select him in the 1978 draft, then had up until the 1979 draft to sign him or lose their exclusive rights. It was a gamble that paid off. But I don’t remember Commissioner O’Brien being involved in any way.
I probably overstated it, but according to one of the many Larry Bird documentaries I’ve seen, when Bird stated that he was returning to Indiana State for another year, the commissioner’s office made sure to notify every team of this, which contributed to him falling to the Celtics.
It’s not, it’s merely a distinction that I thought was worth mentioning.
Bill Russell was said to be the most prolific shot-blocker of all time, but we’ll never know for sure since it didn’t become an NBA stat until 1973-74. Russ was also considered the greatest player in NBA playoff finals, but never won the “Bill Russell NBA Finals MVP Award” since a Finals-MVP was never awarded until 1969. (Which is similar to the fact that Cy Young never won a Cy Young Award?)
It’s also difficult to compare assist totals across eras, since during Russell’s career, there were only a handful of players who had a FG% above .500, outside of Wilt.)
I think the more pressing concern with assist totals, compared to the negligible shifts in field goal percentages over time, is the fact that teams take more than 25 fewer shots per game now than they did in Russell’s early years. Nothing helps your counting stats like a 30% bump in possessions.
I think this thread makes the SDMB NBA threads Mt. Rushmore. Which is about like naming a Mt. Rushmore for Jamaican bobsled teams.
Jordan is the only lock to be on there. The four that feel most right to me are:
Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Magic
But Russell, Lebron and Dr. J all have quite a case.
I don’t know how any fan of 80’s NBA basketball can choose between Magic & Bird for a Mount Rushmore debate. And this is coming from an avowed Laker lover and Celtic hater. Magic may have had a slightly better career (and two more championships), but they’re so intertwined and both so essential to the growth of the NBA. And there was a stretch (83-86) where Bird was considered far better than Magic.
Wilt’s stats were too ridiculous and rules were changed to address his domination. But yeah, Russell was better head-to-head. But how much of that had to do with the supporting casts? I never saw Russell play and saw just a glimpse of Wilt at career’s end. But I’d bet all the tea in China if Wilt and Chamberlain swapped teams, Wilt’s teams would have been even more dominating than the real-world’s Russell’s were.
Many may not think of Lebron as a Mt. Rushmore face, but he’s just about a lock to be a Top 5 All Time (and very easily become #1) unless he has a debilitating injury or gets kicked out of the league for gambling like Jordan… oops, never mind. No other player could have dragged a team like that Cavaliers team to the Finals… except Wilt? And I think he handles himself damn well in the current media era were every word and tweet gets posted to the world.
Dr. J. carried an entire league, was a true ambassador to the game and the first highlight reel and without him, that Pittsburgh Pisces team… fughedaboutit. But his career overlapped with Magic’s and Bird’s and you can’t put three guys from the same era up there.
Kareem should not be on there. For the second half of his career he was not the best player on his team and not the best center in the league (Moses/Hakeem). And he doesn’t really try very hard, except in the playoffs.