# What gender specific descriptors remain/will remain? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 22, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486 "2021-02-22T17:44:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/81 "2021-02-24T13:04:03Z")
> [@Iamnotgrumpy](#): > > Actor for both males and females would be fine too, except the suggestion that we could still have a female actor and male actor categories is bothersome to me. “Female actor” and “Male Actor” seem just as gendered as Actress/Actor. Kinda defeats the purpose of using the gender neutral “Actor” if you the identify which gender the person is. The difference between actor/actress and male actor/female actor is that with the first pair gender is ALWAYS front and center. With the latter two, “actor” is the default and gender is only mentioned where it is relevant (or at least, that’s my hope and desire - I’m aware there’s a gap between theory and practice. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/82 "2021-02-24T13:05:00Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@Iamnotgrumpy](#): > > > > Firefighter or police officer seems to flow well … > > They seem so now. > > I recall when they were first being proposed in the 1970s. They were awkward and stilted. They were longer to write and more syllables to say. They were seen as clunky contrived euphemisms. And at a time 98% of police and fire workers were male, the terms were seen as a ridiculous overreaction to a tiny minority of female workers destined to never grow beyond a small (\<10%?) minority. > > I am not suggesting that these terms are wrong or bad _now_, or were misguided _then_. I’m just relating how the transition felt at the time as it was first coming out of the starting gate. Lots of eye-rolling was done. I can also confirm that this was the case, and in fact the gender neutral terms were frequently mocked and disdained at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/83 "2021-02-24T13:07:17Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > NB on the other hand, if a woman (or man) works for the railroad, she may still be a fireman: > [Internships.com has closed | Chegg](https://www.careermatch.com/job-prep/career-insights/profiles/railroad-fireman/) > [http://www.felalawhelp.com/railroad-jobs/fireman/](http://www.felalawhelp.com/railroad-jobs/fireman/) Aviation also used the term “airman” to refer to all aviators (which would include aviatrixes) at least through the time I was still actively flying (2007), there was still as thing called an “airman’s manual”, and so forth. Which term never bothered me, personally, but probably annoyed at least a few people. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/84 "2021-02-24T15:18:54Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > I would think most of the names for male and female animals will stay. I suspect tomcat will stay in both its literal and its figurative sense. Almost nobody other than maybe cat breeders seems to use the female equivalent ‘queen’, though. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/85 "2021-02-24T15:30:24Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > NB on the other hand, if a woman (or man) works for the railroad, she may still be a fireman: I think you’re missing the point with these descriptivist observations of the way language _is_ used today. It’s not adequate to just say that a word _is_ in practice applied also to women, therefore by definition it’s gender-neutral and everything is fine. The question is whether history may have endowed current usage with sexist semantic baggage, sometimes in a subtle but pervasive manner. If that’s the case, there may be good reason to attempt to prescribe changes. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/86 "2021-02-25T03:28:04Z")
I do get it, but the question is, should we somehow consult with railway workers and Olympic bobsledders and try to find out whether they have any strong preferences in terminology before deciding what is what? In fact I don’t feel we need to be at all shy about unilaterally adopting prescriptive changes, but the sexist semantic baggage is subtle and pervasive so am not sure there is always a facile solution. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/87 "2021-02-25T20:30:40Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Oscars will probably give up Actress within a few years as most women in Hollywood are battling against it Will they combine men and women in the Best Actor category? I can’t see that working out very well for women, considering the dominance men have in sheer number of movies and roles. And if you just split them into Best Actor - Male or Best Actor - Female you may as well just leave them as they are. Edit: now I see this was already mentioned. I’ll just leave it up anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/88 "2021-02-25T20:49:17Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Will they combine men and women in the Best Actor category? I can’t see that working out very well for women, considering the dominance men have in sheer number of movies and roles. If there’s nothing wrong with “the dominance men have in sheer number of movies and roles,” then I don’t think that’s an argument against combining the categories. And if there _is_ something wrong with it, then that’s what needs to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/89 "2021-02-25T20:59:45Z")
I don’t know or care if there is something wrong with male dominance in movies. I rarely watch movies and have never seen an award show. I’m just saying if you combine them women are going from 1 best actor a year guaranteed to probably getting no best actor awards, possibly for years at a time. Or until voters say “gee we better vote for a woman this year cuz it looks bad with men winning all the time.” This seems to be a leave well enough alone situation. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/90 "2021-02-25T21:09:45Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If there’s nothing wrong with “the dominance men have in sheer number of movies and roles,” then I don’t think that’s an argument against combining the categories. And if there _is_ something wrong with it, then that’s what needs to be addressed. Except that equalizing the number and prominence of roles of men and women is going to take some time. And that disparity could be driven in part by market forces. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/91 "2021-02-25T21:20:52Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Will they combine men and women in the Best Actor category? I can’t see that working out very well for women, considering the dominance men have in sheer number of movies and roles. Men and women play very different roles and the type of performance which wins for male acting is going to be very different than for female acting. It can make sense to have gender categories for acting since there is a significant gender difference in the final product. Other categories like director, screenwriter, and composer are less gender influenced, so it’s not as useful to have gender categories. For example, whether a movie is directed by a man or woman doesn’t really influence what the movie ends up being. Certainly the individual director makes a big difference to the movie, but there’s not really a big difference between men and women directors. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/92 "2021-02-25T21:32:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But wouldn’t it still be unusual to call a woman a waiter? Having spent a number of years working in restaurants, I always refer to them as “servers”. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/93 "2021-02-25T22:11:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@kitap](#): > > > > Hen and rooster. Ram and ewe. Mare and stallion. > > Stag and hind. Boar and sow. Jackass and jenny. In some species the name of the male is different, while the name of the female is also the generic name. Bull and cow, drake and duck, gander and goose, tercel and falcon. Don’t underestimate current and growing ignorance of farm animals and biology. Last year I saw a cartoon about “male cows” that clearly had no notion that cow = female, and googling “male cows” gets 611,000,000 results. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/94 "2021-02-25T22:14:01Z")
Hell, I’ve seen cartoons with cows who were obviously intended to be male but had udders. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/95 "2021-02-25T22:22:11Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > … googling “male cows” gets 611,000,000 results. That gets a bit of a pass since by and large “cow” is thought of as the gender-nonspecific word for individual cattle. And has been thought so for decades if not centuries. It just looks weird to us since we’re so used to “the male encompasses the female” that the opposite form: “the female encompasses the male” looks wrong. Despite all the legitimate progress towards gender-neutral terminology over the last 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/96 "2021-02-25T22:25:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That gets a bit of a pass since by and large “cow” is thought of as the gender-nonspecific word for individual cattle. And has been thought so for decades if not centuries. Right. If you saw an individual standing in the distance and couldn’t tell its sex you would just call it a cow. Likewise if you saw a mixed herd you could call it a “herd of cows.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/97 "2021-02-25T22:29:25Z")
I agree. And if you were teaching a child the names for animals, you would say “an adult male cow is called a bull”. And there I think you’re describing a subset of generic cows, not saying that bull is the male counterpart. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/98 "2021-02-25T22:32:44Z")
I can’t help but see a set of generic cows as stick figures in a field of green crayon. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/99 "2021-02-25T22:34:18Z")
Stick figure? You’re obviously not a physicist… > **[Spherical cow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The spherical cow is a humorous metaphor for highly simplified scientific models of complex phenomena. Originating in theoretical physics, the metaphor refers to physicists' tendency to reduce a problem to the simplest form imaginable in order to make calculations more feasible, even if the simplification hinders the model's application to reality. > The metaphor and variants have subsequently been used in other disciplines. > The phrase comes from ... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486/100 "2021-02-25T22:41:23Z")
Wiki on “cow”, “cattle”, and gender: > **[Cattle | Singular terminology issue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#Singular_terminology_issue)** > > "Cattle" can only be used in the plural and not in the singular: it is a plurale tantum. Thus one may refer to "three cattle" or "some cattle", but not "one cattle". "One head of cattle" is a valid though periphrastic way to refer to one animal of indeterminate or unknown age and sex; otherwise no universally used single-word singular form of cattle exists in modern English, other than the sex- and age-specific terms such as cow, bull, steer and heifer. Historically, "ox" was not a sex-specif Cow... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-gender-specific-descriptors-remain-will-remain/933486.md?page=6)