# What happen to the catholic church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2024, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682 "2024-08-14T04:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/21 "2024-08-14T18:28:58Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > What is the claim that the many people in church supported communism and far left movements than later on shifted the views to support conservative? I don’t know, it seems like something you claimed without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/22 "2024-08-14T18:37:57Z")
“A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of communism.” To which the Church, recently concerned mainly with losing real estate to Cavour and Garibaldi, briefly remembered that they were supposed to be God’s advocates on Earth for the poor and the suffering, not Karl Marx. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/23 "2024-08-14T18:40:08Z")
The Christain bible has several versions and has been edited throughout the centuries. While I do love reading about Jesus and trying to understand his parables, it should be noted that Jesus wasn’t a fan of religion or the religious folks of his time. What do you mean Jesus never hated money. He made the point that money and materialism was meaningless and a distraction. Those that love money will never open up to their true spiritual selves. What do you mean by that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/24 "2024-08-14T19:09:40Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > What is the claim that the many people in church supported communism and far left movements than later on shifted the views to support conservative? Yours? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/25 "2024-08-14T19:12:00Z")
When you say “catholic church” are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/26 "2024-08-14T20:59:58Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > That was back in Jesus time. The Church didn’t exist in “Jesus time”. Jesus’ ministry existed for a period of approximately 3 to 10 years. The apostle Peter is considered to be the first Pope by the Roman Catholic Church. The Gospels and letters to the early churches were written by many of the apostles after Jesus’ crucifixion and make up what is considered to be the New Testament bible. The great reformation occured about 1500 years after Jesus’ death and the formation of the Christian church. Since then there are wide interpretations of Jesus’ teachings and where they fall along the political spectrum. One could probably ascribe Jesus’ most basic teachings as either extremely left or right. Love God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/27 "2024-08-14T21:04:25Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Back in time Jesus was going after the banks and the money. What happen to the catholic church? > > It was sin to be wealthy or have lots and lots of money. Has God hated wealth and money. > > What happen to the Catholic Church and Christians today? It seems in the past they where more left? Um, what? First, Jesus going after the moneylenders was because they were loansharks and they were doing it on temple grounds, i.e. disrespecting God. It wasn’t about money. Second, the Catholic Church was anti-money? You mean the Church that _sold indulgences_, i.e. free passes to sin? The Church that is literally decorated in gold? That Church? Far left? The Church that still condemns homosexuality? The Church that claimed masturbation is a sin? The Church that condemns birth control? That is strongly anti abortion? That runs hospitals but restricts their medical services to deny access to birth control or abortions? I’m having a hard time seeing anything far left about the Catholic Church. > [@UDS1](#): > > it did accord a relatively high status to women You mean the part where women were to remain silent in Church? > [@UDS1](#): > > and disregard the social distinctions between slave and free; The Church that did not condemn slavery outright? Because rejecting slavery would be something really left, and morally much higher ground. One would think the Son of God might have shared a few words on the immorality of owning another human being. I mean, especially since Jews had been slaves for a time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/28 "2024-08-14T21:13:06Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > They can lay claim to all they want - and frequently do - but they were NOT founded by Jesus but, arguably, Paul - if not him then later men, depending on where you draw the line. Peter, actually. The current Pope is rather liberal- for a Pope, that is. > [@Strenger](#): > > I don’t read every encyclical from the Vatican, but without having any sources to point to that may satisfy, it’s my impression that the RCC has been for the past forty or fifty years very much on the side of climatology, environmental stewardship, reduction of economic disparity (though certainly Liberation Theology, in all its forms, is bit far from the standard rap), among other topics of concern Yep. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > When I think of the Catholic church, I think of concern for the poor and working class, social justice, etc. But I also think of a sexually conservative institution that values tradition, authority, and hierarchy. You can be both. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/29 "2024-08-14T21:14:37Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > First, Jesus going after the moneylenders was because they were loansharks and they were doing it on temple grounds, i.e. disrespecting God. It wasn’t about money. Can you elaborate on this. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/30 "2024-08-14T21:18:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The Church that did not condemn slavery outright? Because rejecting slavery would be something really left, and morally much higher ground. One would think the Son of God might have shared a few words on the immorality of owning another human being. I mean, especially since Jews had been slaves for a time. I’m not sure what the Bible says about slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/31 "2024-08-14T21:22:18Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Second, the Catholic Church was anti-money? You mean the Church that _sold indulgences_, i.e. free passes to sin? The Church that is literally decorated in gold? That Church? So you saying that Jesus was okay with money and wealth? It is only God that hates money and wealth? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/32 "2024-08-14T21:36:20Z")
Plus let’s not forget that what we call ideological “right” and “left” were not really in the discourse until c. 1800, anyway. As others have mentioned, the Gospel can be, has been, and IS interpreted to support just about whatever the reader wants to. And the organized church and/or factions thereof have been _both_ in support and/or in opposition to the politicoeconomic establishment in different times and places. Now OP will ask to explain each of those paragraphs… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/33 "2024-08-14T21:43:15Z")
The Roman Catholic Church is NOT Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/34 "2024-08-14T22:41:01Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Can you elaborate on this. [Matthew 21:13](https://biblehub.com/matthew/21-13.htm) "Jesus said to them, “It is written [in Scripture], ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER’; but you are making it a ROBBERS’ DEN.” There are more than 30 different translations from various editions of the Bible on that page, and they all say essentially the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/35 "2024-08-14T23:36:14Z")
> [@Jackson99](#): > > Can you elaborate on this. > **[Who were the money changers in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/money-changers-in-the-Bible.html)** > > Who were the money changers in the Bible? Why was Jesus so angry at the money changers near the temple? > [@](#): > > Because Jewish law required a [temple tax](https://www.gotquestions.org/temple-tax.html) of a half-shekel ([Exodus 30:11–16](https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/30/Exodus-30-11.html)), Jews and visitors from other nations came to pay their taxes when they offered their sacrifices. But foreign coins with the likeness of pagan emperors would not be accepted in God’s temple. So money changers exchanged those foreign coins for Jewish money, but they did so at an exorbitant profit. Rather than provide this service as a business in another part of town, they exploited the religious zeal of the visitors to Jerusalem and did their business on temple grounds. Because they determined their own exchange rate, money changers easily took advantage of the poor and the foreigners pouring into Jerusalem for Passover. > > These same money changers were associated with others who engaged in shady business practices in the [temple courts](https://www.gotquestions.org/Herod-third-temple.html). Some sold sacrificial animals, overcharging people who did not bring their own. Others were in charge of examining the animals to be sacrificed, and it was a simple matter to declare an animal “unapproved” and force the worshiper to buy another animal—at an inflated price—from the temple vendors. Such goings-on, exploiting the poor and the foreigner, angered the Lord Jesus and was strictly forbidden in the Mosaic Law ([Exodus 22:21](https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/22/Exodus-22-21.html); [Leviticus 19:34](https://www.bibleref.com/Leviticus/19/Leviticus-19-34.html)). > [@Jackson99](#): > > So you saying that Jesus was okay with money and wealth? It is only God that hates money and wealth? I’m saying the Catholic Church did not hold true to the teachings in the Bible. The Catholic Church was a source of social power exploited by grifters and power mongers for centuries. Whatever Jesus said about money, wealth, camels and needles, the Catholic Church has for much of its history been the biggest collector of wealth at the expense of the poor. > [@Jackson99](#): > > I’m not sure what the Bible says about slavery. You could start here. > **[The Bible and slavery](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery)** > > The Bible contains many references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. Biblical texts outline sources and the legal status of slaves, economic roles of slavery, types of slavery, and debt slavery, which thoroughly explain the institution of slavery in Israel in antiquity. The Bible stipulates the treatment of slaves, especially in the Old Testament. There are also references to slavery in the New Testament. > Many of the patriarchs portrayed in the Bible were from the upper ec... > [@](#): > > In [Paul’s](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle) [letters to the Ephesians](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Ephesians), Paul motivates early Christian servants to remain loyal and obedient to their masters like they are to Christ. In Ephesians 6:5–8, Paul states “Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ”.[[101]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#cite_note-102) Similar statements regarding obedient slaves can be found in Colossians 3:22–24, 1 Timothy 6:1–2, and Titus 2:9–10.[[102]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#cite_note-103)[[103]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#cite_note-104)[[104]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#cite_note-105) I Paul instructs slaves to be obedient to their masters, and masters to treat slaves decently. What’s more telling to me is that Jesus does not preach that slavery is a sin. He does not condemn slaveowners. He cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season, but can’t be arsed to speak against owning people. I spoke against two issues you mentioned, but got seem to be taking them as the same issue. I explained Jesus’s rant against the moneylenders. I did not point out his lessons about the rich man who asked how to get to heaven, but that would fit your characterization of being against wealth, but mostly because people concerned with accumulating wealth seldom are concerned with helping the needy. My second, more prolofic response was in regards to your statement that the Catholic Church was at one time liberal. I want to know what you mean, because the Catholic Church as I am aware of it is far more concerned with collecting wealth and power than helping. And you are conflating Jesus with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is an organization that formed centuries after Jesus died. Yes, I’m aware it claims direct descent from Peter, but the Catholic Church is not the early church. It is the descendent of that church. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/36 "2024-08-14T23:48:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Peter, actually. Sorry, you are right - a bad brain-fade there! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/37 "2024-08-15T00:01:06Z")
Easy to conflate the two, especially after they worked together to create the York Peppermint Pattie (which angered the Bishop of Lancashire) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/38 "2024-08-15T00:04:19Z")
The Catholic Church is vast, ancient, and complicated. It is almost everything at the same time, somewhere: socialistic, communal, warlike, rigidly hierarchical, oppressive, cruel, liberating, courageous unto martyrdom, joyful, sustaining, punitive. It feeds the poor, is the only help offered the abandoned, and it destroys lives. It is austerely monastic and grotesquely ornate. The OP’s question is so simplistic as to be unanswerable. At this moment, there are laypeople and nuns and priests engaged in the works of love commanded by Jesus, ministering to the poorest and most rejected, standing up for justice when it is very costly to do so, and others complacently doing exactly what he railed against. Lots of people on this board have a one-dimensional view of Catholicism, but they are seeing through a pinhole. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/39 "2024-08-15T00:13:16Z")
What @Ulfreida said. One could probably make a strong case that the Catholic Church has been \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ (fill in the blank with just about anything you want), without lying or making anything up, but by being very selective with the evidence and leaving a lot out. There’s also the question of who or what counts as The (Roman) Catholic Church—all of its members worldwide? All priests? Just those above a certain level in the Church’s hierarchy? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682/40 "2024-08-15T00:14:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > There’s also the question of who or what counts as The (Roman) Catholic Church—all of its members worldwide? All priests? Just those above a certain level in the Church’s hierarchy? The Church says that everyone who is a baptized Catholic is the Church. They’re real firm on that. What that means in practice … another story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happen-to-the-catholic-church/1005682.md?page=3)