What happened "before" evolution?

But this gives no redundancy at all, which was a central part of your argument. Your body still has a critical dependency on the system that feeds the brain. If that dies, the organism is dead. The system that doesn’t feed the brain is not much help either… if it dies, the other half is now attached to a huge mass of rotting tissue.

It’s not inconceivable. As has been argued upthread the existing heart can be seen as a twin system (the right half feeds the lungs, the left half feeds the rest of the body). It provides load balancing but not redundancy. My argument is that since separating the twin halves of the heart provides no redundancy, and because coordinating and maintaining two hearts would be complex and expensive, you don’t see either of these scenarios in vertebrates.

Some invertebrates of course have multi-hearts, but that’s because their hearts don’t provide the critical function of oxygen perfusion. They’re only for circulating nutrients, so it makes sense for them to trade some reliability for redundancy (an organism can tolerate an interruption to nutrition longer than pauses to oxygenation).

Well, cancers are a threat to all multicellular organisms, all of the time.
Our cells have multiple defences against unrestricted division, but the selection pressure is only on getting an organism to a mature age, so the defences only have to be effective enough to do that.
</nitpick>

Hokay. Feel free to ignore the bulk of the context of the question, “Removal of one of either does not result in death; obviously, the evolutionary process has provided a non essential redundancy… Given the importance of the heart for the maintenance of life, it would seem that of all organs, this is the one that would be a prime candidate for redundancy.”

But I do apologize if my perfectly valid response was too glib, it was not my intention to offend.

I probably should have just ended this thread of speculation by noting that the heart didn’t emerge as a paired organ; it was originally just a tube that which over time has divided left/right and forewards/backward (in many combinations) as evolutionary pressures dictate.

Now if you wish, you can pose the argument “things that occur in multiplicity have to occur in pairs because of bilateral symmetry.” To me this is so obvious as to be trivial; it just recapitulates the definition of bilateral symmetry.

Right, because evolution isn’t like a focus group for mouthwash. But it’s interesting that a pretty simple deviation, dividing the halves of an already paired organ, never even seemed to begin to happen. It’s not that great a leap, like suddenly sprouting radio communication. When a certain form persists a long time without deviation then we have to ask ourselves why no similar alternative ever seemed to take off, and the answer is always some form of “it was never even partly advantageous.”

Yeah I probably shouldn’t have said the heart began as paired organs.
I’m not postulating that it was two discrete units that somehow bonded. I mean that it started on the lateral line and therefore had two sides immediately (even if it looked homogenous; the point is a single mutation could lead to mirrored changes).
Those two sides became, or already were, two pumps.

I don’t think that’s an accurate paraphrase of what I’m saying. I have multiple lots of things that aren’t paired e.g. vertebrae.

I think it’s still a pretty big leap though. How often in bilateral organisms has a structure divided into two units with the same function (other than across the sagittal plane)?

Well that is fair enough, although again, the heart emphatically did not originate as two pumps. It was one tube that became a divided tube and then started functioning as two pumps.

That is a holdover from body segmentation. When you look at the ribs, vertebra, trachea, you see holdovers from our shared ancestor with the earthworm. This is likely also how the heart segments into top and bottom chambers.

Well, arguably, if you go back far enough, every organ was originally a singular midline structure. At that point they weren’t always recognizable as the organs we have now. Those changes were progressing while bilateral organisms were getting large enough even to accommodate any significant duplication, so it’s a case of interdependent arising.

So it’s still entirely possible that a midline structure could bifurcate, if the mutations occurred and if circumstances favored it. It’s just that the existing design is so effective, and other designs of such dubious benefit, that any mutation even beginning to head down that path is doomed to failure.

Fine, but now we’ve gone full circle and we get back to my hypothesis: that evolution appropriated two hemispheres of an original organ into two slightly different functions.
And it’s not obvious how you’d now duplicate the total functionality.

i.e. if the early heart had bifurcated, we’d now have a pump for oxygenated blood on one side of the body and a pump for deoxygenated blood on the other. We still wouldn’t have a spare.

If you say so. I was pretty sure you were saying that we had two of whatever just because they were paired, not because selective pressure dicates it. The reason we have two halves of the heart is not because it’s advantageous to have a left and a right side, it’s because it’s strongly advantageous to have separate pulmonary and systemic pumps. It happened to shake out into left and right because we’re bilaterally symmetric. It happened that the sides are tightly coupled and independent because it would be highly unlikely to have them separate or distributed (although it is possible, see the octopus for reference).

The evolutionary path of everything is always and only guided by selective pressure. Morphology just constrains how likely it is that certain forms will be favored.

I’ve no idea what your point is any more. It sounds like you’re repeating my point back to me. So I guess we’re done.

Could the major lobes of the liver be an evolutionary pathway to “paired livers?”

Or…do paired organs arise in a different layer of fetal tissue than non-paired organs?

(I’m thrashing here; I took botany in college so I wouldn’t have to dissect frogs…)

HeyU: read your blog, enjoyed it, somewhat agree with it. You basically seem to be asking questions…which is always valid. What is the purpose of life? Why are we here? What does it all mean? etc.

Nothing wrong with asking questions. It’s when people think they know the answers – and yet cannot fulfill the various onuses of having knowledge – that theology gets messy.

This is why scientific knowledge is held in high esteem by so many of us: it can be tested practically. Any one of us can, at a fairly minor expense and without too much labor, re-create a great many of the fundamental experiments in science. We can follow Newton and mess around with prisms. We can follow Pasteur and show that life doesn’t originate in sterile environments. (Often mis-used by creationists to say that abiogenesis is not possible. Not quite what Pasteur showed!)

You and I can do science. Jearl Walker wrote “The Amateur Scientist” column for Scientific American for decades.

Of course…you and I can also do theology…

I see the logic of your argument, but see that there are some underlying complexities:

First, there is a supposition that at the beginning of this process there is a fully functional cell. This in itself is somewhat problematic; we know that even the most simple living cell is a highly complex organism composed of numerous inter-related and co-dependant processes and structures. How did they come to be?

In addition, once this cell came to be, how did it reproduce and pass on its structural information to the next generation? This implies the existence of DNA, incorporating all the blueprints for a complex, living entity.

Therefore, the existence of a cell implies at least a two step process: the evolution of the individual processes and structures required for its existence; and the registration of the blueprint data to DNA in order to ensure its reproductive and continued existence.

Then, applying this to your sponge process description above: as an aggregation of cells forms in order to perform a specific function, there develops a need for an infrastructure to support that aggregation. It will need a nutrient supply; so a plumbing system will need to be developed to provide that. Similarly, it will need a plumbing system to remove the wastes.

Each of these plumbing functions will have specific design requirements; there will be the gross structural design, and the underlying specialist functions of the component cells forming the structures.

How was the need for the infrastructure communicated to the other cells in the organism? Once started, how were the design specifics passed on to future generations; as well as the requirements for the overall newly evolving aggregate organism?

Again, DNA comes to mind.

But how is this new blue print knowledge incorporated into the cell DNA? Is there retrograde modification of the DNA of existing cells, as the modifications occur; or is a whole new DNA molecule created which incorporates the new design features? Are the DNA modifications made incrementally, or are they passed on only when the new structure is complete?

Exactly how are these modifications passed on? And are these modifications incorporated into one single cell, or do all the cells of the newly evolved organism spontaneously incorporate the design modifications?

It happens all the time?

You’ve got it backwards. The DNA is modified at random. Some of those random modifications (mutations) happen to be advantageous and increase the reproductive success of the organism.

See also Lamarckism.

I wasn’t addressing the specific issue of biogenesis - the question I was answering was about the evolution of organs - how does an organism have a kidney when it’s ancestor did not, basically.

Again, function and complexity develop in step with each other, and what you call specific design requirements, I call emergent behaviour. No design, it just happens. So, for the sponge example, a spongy blob grows. When it gets to a certain size, cells in the centre cannot get sufficient resources, so they die out. This causes a hole in the structure, and cells surrounding that hole can now easily survive, and may be more protected from external threats. So the sponge has started developing structural features that assist survival, but with no design. Look at Conway’s Game of Life. Four simple rules, but from a random input complex behaviour can emerge.

DNA is the medium, there is no disputing this.

It is all incremental, and based in the germ-line.
In the case of the sponge, a single cell changes, and if it is more successful at surviving, that cell will out-replicate its peers and become the dominant organism. Also, the environment can modify gene expression, so sponge cells that are exposed to the outside can express differently to ones on the inside, and you get more complexity (such as the spongy structure, or tube shapes, or whatever).
In the case of bacteria, they have a mechanism for randomly exchanging DNA - this is how antibiotic resistance spreads between bacterial species. Resistance to a specific antibiotic occurred randomly once, but the successful surviving bacteria multiplied and exchanged DNA with other bacteria (including other species) to spread the resistance gene. This has been observed, and by sequencing the various resistance genes and tracking the changes over time, geneticists can identify the path the genes have taken pointing back to the original DNA mutation.
For larger multicellular organisms that have sex, DNA mutations occur in the germ cells when they are generated. If that germ cell happens to be used for progeny, and that progeny is better adapted to the environment, and it survives to breed further, that change will spread until it becomes the dominant form. The mixing of DNA inherent in sex also modifies the DNA in various ways. But it is a very slow and gradual process, with many, many failures. But is is also not quite as random as all that. Some DNA errors are more common than others. Repetition of a chunk of DNA is common, as are splice errors. These make certain sorts of changes more likely and more survivable than others (such as the sorts of replications that make multisegmented insects like millipedes). DNA folding also exposes certain areas to mutagenic agents more than others. And it is apparent that external DNA can in some cases be integrated in the germline (there are chunks of ancient viral DNA in the human genome).

Maybe I should have phrased it as - It is a continual, ongoing process.

Si

Rather than get into an argument over semantics, in the context of this discussion, I suggest that the terms “design” and “specific design requirement” would be descriptions of the physical characteristics of a system; “emergent behaviour” would be a qualitative description of the observed actions of that system.

Continuing with the sponge example of emergent functionality: it seems to me that there are three critical issues that have bearing: the physical process of transferring newly acquired capabilities to descendant organisms; the reproductive capabilities of emergent organisms; and the life span of both individual cells and the associated organism.

Assuming that the specialised blob resulted from an aggregation descended from a single mutated cell, how was the subsequent aggregation reproduced into the next generation of the containing organism? Your description of the sideways exchange of DNA is understood, and relevant in current developed organisms, but of dubious importance in emerging organisms.

In the context of the emergence of new life forms, there are three constraints that would work in opposition to this process: the absence of a defined mechanism of data transfer; the volume of life forms; and their life span.

The mechanism of transfer implies that all of the following be in place: a mutated aggregation of cells contained within a larger organism; the capability of physically transferring the newly acquired functionality to a replicating functionality; the existence of a duplicate and receptive organism; physical proximity of both donor and recipient organisms; a process for the transfer of specific genetic material to specific target cells; a means of incorporating and subsequently expressing the newly acquired functionality into subsequent offspring.

It is evident that at the time of emergence that there would be insufficient number of mutated cells to accomplish the kind of DNA transfer that we observe in currently existing life forms; they would have statistically insignificant number of targets, and both the donor and recipient would probably die before the process could either be effected or have any beneficial effect.

Back to the kidney example: in that the lifespan of the individual cells is necessarily short, the death of the innermost cells and the resultant cavity would be unlikely to convey ongoing benefit: both the remaining cells and the organism itself would have died before the organism could lock in the structure, develop a mechanism of functional transfer, or enact the process described above.

Furthermore, for the cavity to have any long term functional benefit, it would necessarily need to acquire functional specialization: the cavity would require a lining of cells compatible with the wastes to be conveyed; the lining cells would be required to develop functional specialisation; and the system would require the development of directional specificity; ie: the wastes would need to be conveyed out of the organism, as opposed to flowing in random directions within the organism.

The time required for these design requirements to evolve would be far greater than the lifespan of both the individual cells and their containing organism; and the organism would have been poisoned by its own wastes before any such structures evolved.

Regarding “The Game of Life”, I have observed and been fascinated by it in action in many of its variations; however, in the final analysis, I have to put it into the same basket as String Theory and Climate Modelling: interesting mathematical constructs, but of little relevance to the real world.

Similarly, we cannot continue to skate around the issue of biogenesis: without a comprehensive and detailed description of the mechanisms and processes of biogenesis, and specifically the emergence of DNA, all of the above discussion is little more than the equivalent of the counting of the number of angels on the head of a pin.

I think you have an agenda in your questions and are not being honest with your reasons for asking them. :dubious:

I don’t understand how or why you’ve ranked those as the 3 critical issues.
1)” The physical process of transferring newly acquired abilities” - this is not phrased in a way I would agree with. It’s not like one generation of an organism is immediately poisoned by arsenic but the next generation is completely immune. We’re talking about tiny, incremental changes over geologic time scales. So a more accurate example is that an organism dies when the surrounding environment has an arsenic concentration of 0.1 mmol/L. Some mutation occurs, and the descendants of this organism (assuming it has the chance to reproduce) are now able to tolerate an environment with an arsenic concentration of 0.11 mmol/L. This allows the descendants to ‘expand their territory’ as it means that locations that were previously just barely toxic are now marginally inhabitable and this mutation is able to outcompete other members of its own species as it has exclusive access to some environments. Over time, this mutation can spread throughout the population as those organisms lacking it, die.

2)”The reproductive capabilities of the emergent organism” Again this phrasing is something I do not agree with. Do you consider yourself to be an ‘emergent organism’ as compared to your parents? You are a successive generation who has some minor mutations as compared to your parents.

Please try to imagine the evolution of a square shape to a star shape through successive iterations in such a gradual way that each adjacent iteration of the shape is >99% similar, but after many, many iterations, you have a star shape. In this way, the beginning shape (square) and the end shape (star) are completely different, but looking back on the evolution, each adjacent shape is very very similar. This is what happens to life evolving.

Organisms on Earth reproduce either by binary fission or sexually. Reproducing sexually requires a compatible partner; binary fission does not.

3)” the life span of both individual cells and the associated organism” This one’s easy. The life span of the individual cells of the organism has to be long enough for the organism as a whole to reproduce successfully. This is part of the reason why cancer in humans is more prevalent the older you get. Once you’ve reproduced, you’re irrelevant as far as evolution is concerned.

Bullshit. Evolution has absolutely nothing to say on the subject of how life arose. The fact is that life DID arise. The mechanism of how life manages to specialize and change to suit its environment over time is the only question the theory of evolution can answer.

  1. Agenda??? This is too deep for me; you are going to have to spell that out for me.

  2. No, if a cell has a life span of a day or so, it may acquire immunity to arsenic through a mutation, but die before it can pass on that acquired immunity.

The concept of “geological time spans” is a non sequitur; if the mutation is not passed on during the lifespan of the cell that has it, then the mutation dies with the cell. Then the system has to wait until another cell happens to get the same mutation, and try again.

All of this assumes that the cell has the mechanism and the means by which to pass on the mutation.

  1. More to the point, if I have acquired a beneficial mutation and either I do not have the means or the desire to reproduce that mutation, it will not be passed on. For the species to benefit, more people than just me would need to experience that same mutation, and be receptive to its transfer.

  2. Your square to star example is a trivial example attempting to illustrate a very complex process.

When we are talking about the development of for example the urinary system, we are not talking about knocking the corners off a square. We are talking about the development of major very complex and inter-related biological, physical and bio chemical changes.

For this system to develop, numerous quantum leap changes would be required, and these would not occur “incrementally over geological time”.

  1. That is my whole point. Fundamental to all our discussion of evolution and the development of organisms is the premise that a fully developed and functioning cell already exists.

These cells must necessarily contain not only functional physical processes of life, but also fully developed means of replication: DNA.

Without the existence of such cells, the whole concept of evolution vanishes.

So, the fundamental question is not “how does evolution occur”, it is: “where and how did the original cell come from?”

A single cell organism does not die of old age - it is either killed or it replicates by division. This is why antibiotic resistant bacteria so quickly dominate, they have little competition for resources and multiply rapidly.

The cell has the means to pass on the mutation - it is inherent in being a cell.

You are combining single cell evolutionary processes with multicellular evolutionary processes - the two (as I noted in my earlier post) are quite different. Multicellular organisms only change due to mutations in the germ cells - so ova and sperm. These sorts of changes (assuming they are viable) are always heritable. However, they occur at a much slower rate than mutations in single cell organisms. No mutation that occurs in a non-germ body cell can become heritable, no matter what benefits it confers. This is also why sex is so important for multicellular organisms - it provides for swapping and shuffling DNA and the opportunity for errors to occur, which may or may not be useful in an evolutionary sense.

Numerous incremental changes need to occur over geological timescales. And the interrelated biological, physical and bio-chemical changes happen in step with each other, so that the interrelationships develop with the increasing complexity. This process is illustrated in the fossil record with structural changes - there are clear dateable developments of species in the fossil records from primitive older fossils to more developed more recent ones. The whole “no transitional forms” concept has been thoroughly disproved by years of dedicated effort finding, dating and classifying fossil species in the same location over geologic timescales. It is entirely akin to slowly transforming a square to a star.

This discussion resulted from a question about how an organ like the kidney came to evolve -

[QUOTE=Polar Iceman]
How does the evolving organism survive without a kidney while it is waiting for one to evolve?
[/QUOTE]

  • a completely different one to the OP and your question above. You cannot use the discussion of one to rebutt the other - they are completely separate issues.

Biogenesis is still unknown, but there are hints. This New Scientist article discusses developments in the theory of how complex eukaryotic cells developed from simple ones.

Si

Yes, the discussion has rambled off onto a couple of tangents, but from my perspective the numerous posts here have been very interesting.

It seems pretty evident to me that “evolution” is merely a filtering process. It acts to filter out and concentrate those individuals that happen to possess a particularly desirable characteristic within a particular species within a particular set of circumstances.

In other words all it does is amplify the relative concentration of one particular trait from within the normal range of variability within a species. That’s all it does.

However, for evolution to work, it needs fully developed organisms to start with; they need to be alive, with all their biological components and functions fully intact and fully functional.

We are told by the current theories of genetics that DNA exists in every cell of an organism, and this DNA contains everything that is needed to form any organism. It is the design blueprint, the project plan and the project manager for all life forms.

Somewhere in the distant past a fully developed cell, with fully functional DNA popped up, and served as the basis for all future life forms. The appearance of this cell was “The Big Bang” of biology.

This explains some of the puzzles of biological history: amongst other things, it explains: “common origin”, commonality of functionality, the Cambrian Explosion, and the rapid repopulation of the earth after the numerous mass extinctions.

All we need to explain now is where and how the original cell and its constituent DNA originated.

This is actually not accurate… I mean it’s true at some point that cells were a major evolutionary milestone, but not the first. It’s almost certain that self-replicating precursors to RNA existed before that, without even a cell membrane, and that they arose from what we consider non-living materials. This has actually been done in a test tube. So unlike the Big Bang, we do have a pretty good idea what happened, or at least we know we’re pretty close.

I’m not sure where you get the idea that inherited mutations come from somatic cells, but it’s entirely wrong. That’s not the case at all. Somatic cell mutations generally result in cancer.

Germ line mutations end up with the changed DNA being present in every single cell in the organism. This includes the germ cells, crucially, which supplies the “data transfer” that you seem to believe is absent. Of course, germ cell mutations are usually fatal as well, resulting in a miscarriage or some other major problem preventing the offspring from maturing or reaching sexual maturity, but a very small proportion of them ends up being advantageous in that time and place.