# What happened before the universe was born?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 6, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016 "2006-12-06T02:05:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@tgan3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tgan3)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/1 "2006-12-06T02:05:03Z")
I know about the big bang which gives birth to the universe, but what causes it?And i heard that before the big bang there is gravitational singularity which causes matter to have infinite density and zero volume.In other words, a black hole.If there is so, who or what created that black hole when you need a star to have a black hole isn’t it?Keep in mind that the universe was not even borned, so how did you have a star?To cut it short, you will need a something to create that gravitational singularity and there will be SOMETHING which creates the something to create the gravitational singularity…You’ll get the drift… so how do you do it when space time does not exists?Therefore i think that the world we live in is a paradox and i always use this example when people talks about ghosts,aliens and any paranormal activities to be illogical.The world we live in is already ILLOGICAL…
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/2 "2006-12-06T02:18:23Z")
No one knows and by that I mean absolutely no one. In fact, most theoretical physicists say we can’t ever know since our everything we can know is locked inside this universe and the process that created it would not be a part of that. There is some conjecture but it is just that at the moment. You might want to pick up A Brief History of Time by Steven Hawking even though it is getting older. It is a good read on this type of thing although it won’t give you the final answers.
The fact that physics and existence itself is extremely strange always reassures me that there are very fundamental things man does not know about the universe and may never know and that keeps things interesting. However, it isn’t logical to use that to support “ghosts, aliens and any paranormal activities”. One does not follow the other. Theoretical physics is plenty weird and cool enough if you read about it from some of the rare geniuses that can make it accessible to curious people like Steven Hawking and Carl Sagan can.
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### Author:  [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/3 "2006-12-06T02:23:25Z")
Nitpick: the Universe was not “borned”, it was “bornded”.
And what happens before anything gets bornded, is that something first gets f\*cked. Which when it comes to the nature of the Universe, should explain rather a lot.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/4 "2006-12-06T02:30:20Z")
> [@tgan3](#):
>
> To cut it short, you will need a something to create that gravitational singularity and there will be SOMETHING which creates the something to create the gravitational singularity…You’ll get the drift… so how do you do it when space time does not exists?Therefore i think that the world we live in is a paradox and i always use this example when people talks about ghosts,aliens and any paranormal activities to be illogical.The world we live in is already ILLOGICAL…
It’s certainly true that the concept of a gravitational singularity existing **outside** of spacetime as we know it is paradoxical or illogical **by the standards of that spacetime itself**. In other words, it is indeed illogical to talk about something existing “before” the beginning of time itself, when there **is** no “before”, and no “when” either.
But all that means is that our understanding of temporal causality, spacetime, and so forth only applies to the post-Big-Bang universe. There **may** be a logical way to conceptualize the event(s) that caused the Big Bang, but as **Shagnasty** says, we don’t have access to it yet, if we ever will.
So the “pre-Big-Bang paradox” isn’t adequate as an explanation or defense of unproven phenomena like ghosts and aliens, which allegedly exist **within** our own post-Big-Bang universe where standard, consistent, “logical” models of spacetime do apply. (Mostly.)
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### Author:  [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/5 "2006-12-06T02:33:14Z")
There is no “before”. All dimensions, including time, came into existence when the Big Bang occurred. Without time itself, there can be no “before” or “after”, and no “cause” and “effect”. The question itself is meaningless.
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/6 "2006-12-06T02:38:36Z")
[QUOTE=Smitty]
There is no “before”. All dimensions, including time, came into existence when the Big Bang occurred. Without time itself, there can be no “before” or “after”, and no “cause” and “effect”. The question itself is meaningless.
[/QUOTE]
It may be “meaningless” if you focus on the word “before” but of course the spirit of the question is endlessly fascinating and one that theoretical physicists like to ponder and butt their heads against. “Why does the universe exist?” or some variation of the question may be more correct but lots of people make wording mistakes when they ask about this stuff.
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### Author:  [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/7 "2006-12-06T03:32:45Z")
[QUOTE=tgan3]
. . .gravitational singularity which causes matter to have infinite density and zero volume.In other words, a black hole.
[/QUOTE]
I just clocked it to say that a black hole is not a true singularity, not infinitely dense nor zero volume. Just really dense and really small. It is distinctly different than what the universe was at _t_[sub]0[/sub].
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### Author:  [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/8 "2006-12-06T03:38:43Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas]
I just clocked it to say that a black hole is not a true singularity, not infinitely dense nor zero volume. Just really dense and really small. It is distinctly different than what the universe was at _t_[sub]0[/sub].
[/QUOTE]
Aw, C’mon, I wanna get bornded from a black hole!
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/9 "2006-12-06T03:39:57Z")
[QUOTE=Smitty]
There is no “before”. All dimensions, including time, came into existence when the Big Bang occurred. Without time itself, there can be no “before” or “after”, and no “cause” and “effect”. The question itself is meaningless.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve always found this view overly dismissive and boring. As Shagnasty pointed out, it may be meaningless within our concept of the universe as we understand it, but to ponder what brought the universe into existence is, I feel, the penultimate mystery to ponder. It’s a singularity where science, philosophy, and “faith” meet. The only thing that keeps me awake at night is: Why does ANYTHING have to exist at all? The one question I don’t believe science, philosophy or “faith” will ever be able to answer.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/10 "2006-12-06T03:46:44Z")
Here’s a page with some simple descriptions of the current candidates for theories of universe creation. They’ll give you some terms to search on.
[http://web.uvic.ca/~jtwong/newtheories.htm](http://web.uvic.ca/~jtwong/newtheories.htm)
There are many others. It’s common to say that nobody knows, and technically speaking it may be true, but many scientists have developed hypotheses with sound theoretical backing for creating a universe. We may not yet know which, if any, apply to us, but it’s no longer mere metaphysics to talk about universe creation.
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### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/11 "2006-12-06T04:03:09Z")
The Bouncing Universe theory on the linked page argues that the universe came into being with a bug bang.
While it is easy to jest about a spelling mistake, there is something resonant about the Bug Bang idea. It would explain a lot to me if someone could prove that the universe was formed as a result of a software malfunction in somebody’s computer system.
I wonder if the error has been fixed yet.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/12 "2006-12-06T04:50:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I just clocked it to say that a black hole is not a true singularity, not infinitely dense nor zero volume. Just really dense and really small. It is distinctly different than what the universe was at t[sub]0[/sub].
A black hole is more than just a singularity, but (according to all present theories of physics) it does contain a true singularity at its heart. Now, we don’t yet have a theory of quantum gravity, and it’s widely suspected that once we do, it’ll tell us that that isn’t a true singularity after all. But it might well also tell us that the Big Bang wasn’t a true singularity, either.
> [@](#):
>
> There are many others. It’s common to say that nobody knows, and technically speaking it may be true, but many scientists have developed hypotheses with sound theoretical backing for creating a universe. We may not yet know which, if any, apply to us, but it’s no longer mere metaphysics to talk about universe creation.
“Ideas”, perhaps, but I don’t think you can even say they’re hypotheses. A hypothesis needs to be, at least in principle, testable, and ideas about the causes of universes inherently are not.
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/13 "2006-12-06T05:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara]
The Bouncing Universe theory on the linked page argues that the universe came into being with a bug bang.
While it is easy to jest about a spelling mistake, there is something resonant about the Bug Bang idea. It would explain a lot to me if someone could prove that the universe was formed as a result of a software malfunction in somebody’s computer system.
I wonder if the error has been fixed yet.
[/QUOTE]
No frickin’ way. Look around you. Does it seem fixed to you?
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/14 "2006-12-06T05:50:16Z")
[QUOTE=cmyk]
… to ponder what brought the universe into existence is, I feel, the penultimate mystery to ponder.
[/QUOTE]
I hate myself for picking apart other people’s posts, but this just wasn’t what I was expecting, and it threw me for a loop. What, I wonder, do you feel is the _ultimate_ mystery to ponder?
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### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/15 "2006-12-06T08:02:41Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester]
No frickin’ way. Look around you. Does it seem fixed to you?
[/QUOTE]
Did you really think I would expect a computer problem to be fixed in only 14 billion years?
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/16 "2006-12-06T13:49:45Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube]
I hate myself for picking apart other people’s posts, but this just wasn’t what I was expecting, and it threw me for a loop. What, I wonder, do you feel is the _ultimate_ mystery to ponder?
[/QUOTE]
The meaning of life, of course 😉
Unless you’re happy with 42.
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### Author:  [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/17 "2006-12-06T15:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=Smitty]
There is no “before”. All dimensions, including time, came into existence when the Big Bang occurred. Without time itself, there can be no “before” or “after”, and no “cause” and “effect”. The question itself is meaningless.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand this, just like I don’t understand the concept that the universe might be finite. As matter is neither created nor destroyed, everything had to be \*somewhere _before the Big Bang. I know that time is a man-made construct, but I can’t understand the concept of there being_ nothing \*before the BB.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/18 "2006-12-06T16:14:20Z")
It’s not that matter is neither created nor destroyed but mass-energy that can neither be created nor destroyed. And even that law is qualified by the unspoken phrase “within our universe.”
The various universe theories either postulate the energy for the creation of our universe coming from another universe or from a potential energy source. The latter is usually referred as “zero-point energy” and comes from the quantum residual that always exists because true quantum nothingness is not possible. A random fluctuation in this energy could have created our universe out of “nothingness.” Is this the same as philosophical “nothingness?” That’s a matter of definition. Me, I don’t believe in philosophical “nothingness.” 🙂
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/19 "2006-12-06T16:33:44Z")
All the hypotheses’ aside as to the origin of our universe, the thing that really grabs my nads is these might explain where our universe came from, but it doesn’t (nor do I think we can ever) answer why _something_ exists, instead of always _nothing_. To take it one step further, outside of the context of a universe, can even nothing truly be said to exist? Nothing is only nothing in context of the _absence_ of something (yikes\*)… so if the universe never existed. Well. That’s not even nothing… it’s DEEPER than that. Something I can’t even find word for.
\*I realize I’m treading into some dangerous semmantic water here, and I might even be setting myself up for some scrutiny that I can’t defend myself. But it’s still fascinating to think about.
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-before-the-universe-was-born/383016/20 "2006-12-06T16:39:45Z")
\*\*_I also realize my last post was riddled full of typos and grammatical errors. 😉_
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