# What happened in Sweden? (Trump campaign rally statement) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 19, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219 "2017-02-19T14:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/61 "2017-02-21T18:03:27Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump has managed to piss off and on Mexico, Australia and Sweden. Who’s next? Canada? Switzerland? I predict he’ll rattle his saber at those malcontents on Bora Bora. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/62 "2017-02-21T18:23:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, not a claim I made either. I don’t know who’s responsible for the increasing grenade attacks in Sweden except the one Mighty\_Girl said: “There was one a couple of months ago near a friend’s dental clinic … attributed to biker gangs fighting amongst themselves.” That’s why I asked the question you quoted. So why did you think the topic of grenade attacks was germane to this thread about President Drumpfuck’s insistence that there was an immigrant connected terror attack last week in Sweden? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is your perspective that the grenade attacks are all / primarily the work of native Swedish biker gangs and none / hardly done by immigrants? Your own cite, a Wiki page, says that the grenade attacks are mostly the work of organized crime and the grenades are mostly left over from the Balkans war. > [@HurricanDitka's Wiki cite](#): > > Many attacks are related to organised crime, and extortion of restaurants and businesses.[6] According to Swedish police, the use of hand grenades in crime is unprecedented in all comparable European and non-European countries, and the only countries with similar characteristics are those with warlike conditions.[7] Malmö police have consequently warned about undetonated grenades in the city.[8][9] > > In Malmö the grenades are frequently old weapons from the wars in the Balkans.[10] In addition to grenade attacks, there are a significant number of related bomb attacks with unidentified devices, including homemade bombs. Elsewhere, many people have looked at the issue in light of Donald’s tweet and arrived at the conclusion that he has it all wrong. Here’s a sampler. **Politifact -** > **[Facts on Sweden, immigration and crime](https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/feb/20/what-statistics-say-about-immigration-and-sweden/)** > > When it comes to immigration and national security, President Donald Trump often points to other countries as case studi > [@Henrik Selin](#): > > “In general, crime statistics have gone down the last (few) years, and no there is no evidence to suggest that new waves of immigration has lead to increased crime,” Selin said. **Vox - this one has pretty graphs!** > **[What President Trump gets wrong about immigrants and crime in Sweden](https://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/20/14669572/sweden-trump-immigrant-crime)** > > No, Mr. President, Sweden is not suffering an immigrant crime epidemic. > [@Vox link](#): > > … Historically, immigrants to Sweden do commit crimes at higher rates than the native-born, though children of immigrants commit crimes at basically the same rate as children of native-born Swedes (controlling for income). > > However, there’s no evidence of a massive crime wave. Here is an official Swedish government tally of the rates of six different types of crime directed at persons — fraud, assault, threats, harassment, sexual violence, and mugging. (Homicide is excluded because the rate is tiny; in 2014, there were 87 murders in the entire country of roughly 10 million.) > (Swedish Crime Survey) > > As you can see, there is no significant uptick in any of the crime categories alongside the rise in immigration. The most recent official report available in English, covering 2015, is not incorporated into that chart — but it concludes that the rates of these crimes are at “approximately the same level as in 2005.” That’s a slight increase over the 2014 rate, but hardly evidence of a crime wave — let alone one committed by migrants or refugees. **ABC News** > **[Is President Trump right about crime in Sweden?](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-trump-crime-sweden/story?id=45610077)** > > Trump tried on Sunday to clarify his remarks on Sweden on Saturday. > [@ABC News link](#): > > Sweden hasn’t had any terrorist attacks since it took in a recent wave of asylum seekers. The most recent terrorist attack happened in 2010, when two bombs exploded in Stockholm, killing only the bomber, Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly, an Iraqi-born Swede. > > \ > > In the Fox News report, host Tucker Carlson interviewed Ami Horowitz, who made a film about an alleged increase in crime associated with asylum seekers in Sweden. He has described himself as “right of center.” > > “So they have these — what they really become are no-go zones. These are areas that cops won’t even enter because they’re too dangerous for them,” Horowitz told Carlson. > > Are those claims justified? > > “It’s very judgmental,” Nicklas Lund, a press officer at the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, said of the claims. The council is an agency in Sweden’s Ministry of Justice that conducts research on the judicial system. > > Sweden has 15 suburbs with high crime rates, he said, but the recent influx of refugees doesn’t explain the problem. Rinkeby is one of these 15 areas. > > “In 2015 a big number of refugees came to Sweden, and these were problem areas before that,” he told ABC News. > > In fact, the number of reported crimes in those 15 areas decreased from 2014 to 2015. In 2015, 19,092 crimes were reported in those 15 areas — a decline from 19,576 in 2014. In 2012 the number of reported crimes in these areas was over 20,200, according to data from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention. Numbers for 2016 are not yet available. ABC News also included a link to **this tweet from Carl Bildt** , former Swedish PM who’s been handing Trump his ass on Twitter all weekend. > **Carl Bildt Verified account** ‏@carlbildt Last year there were app 50% more murders only in Orlando/Orange in Florida, where Trump spoke the other day, than in all of Sweden. Bad. \*\*[Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) - \*\* [Trump Exaggerates Swedish Crime - FactCheck.org](http://www.factcheck.org/2017/02/trump-exaggerates-swedish-crime/) > [@Factcheck link](#): > > While there has been an uptick in some crime categories, government statistics from Sweden do not corroborate the claim of a major crime wave due to immigrants. > > According to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå), lethal violence (murder, manslaughter and assault that results in death) totaled 112 victims in 2015. That’s up by 25 (a sizable increase) from 2014, but it’s about the same as the number in 2007, which was 111 victims. > > “In a long-term perspective, ever since the 1990’s when Brå started the measurements, the trend shows that lethal violence is declining,” the website says. Conclusions: 1. Donald Trump is full of shit. 2. Sweden has less crime than Disney World. 3. The grenade attacks are a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/63 "2017-02-21T19:21:15Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > ABC News also included a link to **this tweet from Carl Bildt** , former Swedish PM who’s been handing Trump his ass on Twitter all weekend. > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/833664754845638657) > **Carl Bildt Verified account** > ‏@carlbildt > > Last year there were app 50% more murders only in Orlando/Orange in Florida, where Trump spoke the other day, than in all of Sweden. Bad. I don’t know if you realized when you posted this, but it’s an interesting observation to me at least: Orlando’s murder rate last year was primarily driven by a single event - the deadliest terrorist attack in America since 9/11 - the Pulse nightclub shooting, where a radicalized Muslim killed 49 other people. There were 19 murders in 2015 and 73 in 2016, a 284% increase ([cite](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-handful-of-cities-are-driving-2016s-rise-in-murders/)) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/64 "2017-02-21T19:42:02Z")
Yet another interesting observation: At 19 murders in 2015, Orlando with a population of 255,000 still had a higher murder rate (\>x2) than Sweden in 2015 (pop. 9.5M). ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/65 "2017-02-21T20:19:38Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Do you have a cite, data, or proof that a significant portion of these grenade attacks are the work of immigrants? Are we still saying “immigrants” when we mean “refugees”? What’s Donald talking about? ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/66 "2017-02-21T20:30:43Z")
Trump will now declare that he can predict the future and cite the riots as proof. Believe me. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/67 "2017-02-21T21:07:44Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Are we still saying “immigrants” when we mean “refugees”? What’s Donald talking about? Brown people. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/68 "2017-02-21T21:09:35Z")
Muslims have been immigrating to Sweden (and Europe in general) for some time. The refugee crisis caused by the wars in Iraq and Syria, and the general rise of ISIS has spiked that. I have prior to this year heard stories of incidents in Europe involving immigrants who engage in crimes, notably assault and especially sexual assault and rape. There is concern from some quarters that the Muslim immigrants who are devout are offended/inspired by the openness and general “sluttiness” of Western women. Ergo, they strike out at what offends them as they might have in their countries of origin. There’s a need for assimilation to address differences in mores and laws, and it’s an adjustment that some immigrants oppose. The big concern is that they are coming to Europe and setting up Muslim areas, and then expecting to take over those areas and impose Sharia law. C. J. Box has a book ([Shots Fired](http://www.cjbox.net/new-page-2/)) published in 2014 with a story that takes place in Paris, which makes the same kind of accusations with respect to “no-go” zones. I don’t know the reality of Paris. This kind of concern in Europe is not new. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/69 "2017-02-21T21:36:48Z")
Snopes sez Sharia Muslim no-go zones is False. > **[FACT CHECK: Sharia Law Muslim 'No-Go' Zones?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sharia-law-muslim-no-go-zones/)** > > Rumor: Several European and Americans cities have been designated Islamic 'no-go zones' where Sharia law prevails. It’s a long article, touching on the ridiculous claim that Birmingham is a no-go zone as well as the situation in France. One thing to note - France has an official designation for certain areas which need government attention. These areas tend to be impoverished and have the typical corresponding lack of employment and high crime rates. The French title for these designated areas is “zones urbaines sensibles”, or ZUS, which means “sensitive urban zone”. This has nothing to do with immigrants, Muslims, Sharia law, etc. They are not “no-go zones” - a phrase only a Conservative could love. It’s a designation meaning that the area is entitled to certain government funds and assistance. (Because in Europe, Government is about promoting the general welfare, not just welfare for the military industrial complex.) Anyway, Snopes suspects this is where the idea about no-go zones first got started, by same circuitry that saw a military training exercise in Texas turned into hysteria about Obama’s paramilitary ambitions. These ZUS, along with the other areas that frequently get named including Birmingham and Detroit, are not operating outside of the normal local legal framework. Outsiders are not prevented from visiting these areas. Crimes occur, yes, but the local police handle it just like any other part of the countries. The ZUS are mostly not even areas of high Muslim concentration. The original purveyors of this no-go nonsense have been discredited and mostly apologized for it. Snopes offers this example. > [@Snopes article and quotation from the above link](#): > > Likewise, Middle Eastern writer Daniel Pipes originally blogged about Zones Urbaines Sensibles back in 2006 and then revised his viewpoint after seeing some of them first-hand in 2013: > > > [@](#): > > > > I had an opportunity today to travel at length to several banlieues (suburbs) around Paris, including Sarcelles, Val d’Oise, and Seine Saint Denis. This comes on the heels of having visited over the years the predominantly immigrant (and Muslim) areas of Brussels, Copenhagen, Malmö, Berlin, and Athens. > > > > A couple of observations: > > > > For a visiting American, these areas are very mild, even dull. We who know the Bronx and Detroit expect urban hell in Europe too, but there things look fine. The immigrant areas are hardly beautiful, but buildings are intact, greenery abounds, and order prevails. > > > > These are not full-fledged no-go zones but, as the French nomenclature accurately indicates, “sensitive urban zones.” In normal times, they are unthreatening, routine places. But they do unpredictably erupt, with car burnings, attacks on representatives of the state (including police), and riots. > > > > Having this first-hand experience, I regret having called these areas no-go zones. This concern in Europe is not new, but it is certainly baseless. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/70 "2017-02-21T21:47:40Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > C. J. Box has a book ([Shots Fired](http://www.cjbox.net/new-page-2/)) published in 2014 with a story that takes place in Paris, which makes the same kind of accusations with respect to “no-go” zones. I don’t know the reality of Paris. The book is a work of fiction. It may be a great read but hardly a cite of fact. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/71 "2017-02-21T22:20:33Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/72 "2017-02-21T22:51:02Z")
> [@](#): > > So what the hell was he talking about? You are seriously asking what Trump is talking about? 😛 What’s he EVER talking about? The guy is a loon. I did like John Oliver’s [take](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5DAOeqkMU) on this, though (YouTube video). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/73 "2017-02-21T23:06:58Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > C. J. Box has a book ([Shots Fired](http://www.cjbox.net/new-page-2/)) published in 2014 with a story that takes place in Paris, which makes the same kind of accusations with respect to “no-go” zones. I don’t know the reality of Paris. > > This kind of concern in Europe is not new. Ted Chiang is an award winning author, who has published a piece called [“Story of Your Life”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life) In this, a race of aliens called “heptapods” comes to earth and causes all manner of confusion and disruption. Riots happen, and innocent people are killed. I don’t know the reality of all of this. I can assure you, this kind of concern about a space alien invasion is not new. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/74 "2017-02-21T23:16:54Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well, it seems that after he spews some bullshit, he seems to start to believe it, which is like dementia. > > But [when Peter Alexander pointed out his bullshit last Thursday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZhxgz5yJU), he seemed to realize it, and tried to weasel out of it by saying, “I was given that information.” Harry Truman “The buck stops here.” Donald Trump “its someone else’s fault.” The problem with modern America is that people refuse to take responsibility. Back in Truman’s day… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/75 "2017-02-21T23:45:45Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > ABC News also included a link to **this tweet from Carl Bildt** , former Swedish PM who’s been handing Trump his ass on Twitter all weekend. How can anyone hand such a big ass into such tiny hands? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/76 "2017-02-22T00:56:15Z")
A thousand Danes to join Copenhagen ‘Pray for Sweden’ vigil ’ “Please remember to bring fake flowers,” Artpusher, the Danish prankster behind the event, told The Local. “The idea is that we quietly go there and quietly put down our fake flowers, but the most important thing is the posts we make afterwards about it on social media, so it’s a fake event.” ’ > **[A thousand to mock Trump with Copenhagen 'Pray for Sweden' vigil](https://www.thelocal.dk/20170221/a-thousand-sign-up-for-copenhagen-pray-for-sweden-march)** > > A march will be held in Copenhagen in solidarity with those affected by the "last night in Sweden" incident mentioned on Saturday by US President Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/77 "2017-02-22T01:19:30Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > How can anyone hand such a big ass into such tiny hands? In pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/78 "2017-02-25T17:23:06Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Snopes sez Sharia Muslim no-go zones is False. > > [Sharia Law Muslim 'No-Go' Zones | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp) > > It’s a long article, touching on the ridiculous claim that Birmingham is a no-go zone as well as the situation in France. > > [Snip] > > This concern in Europe is not new, but it is certainly baseless. Thank you for the article. The idea that there are areas effectively under Sharia Law in Europe is false, but the concern that the Muslims desire to convert Europe is not entirely baseless. Still, I appreciate the article for clarfying the situation in Paris. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > The book is a work of fiction. It may be a great read but hardly a cite of fact. First off, I was not using Box as a cite of the legitimacy of no-go zones, I was using him as a cite that there has been concern in Europe over problems caused by Muslim immigrants, including high crime areas and increased cases of rape and assault. And I will point out that snopes article confirms there are areas where the police enter with care and numbers, and that riots including torching cars is frequent. Also, I don’t recall if Box actually referred to them as no-go zones. The plot of the story has Native Americans going to Paris to participate in Wild West shows, and getting lots of sex because they are exotic. The areas being dangerous for white people was the element for his story. That said, given what I can tell of his politics by his writing, I can certainly believe he has fallen for hysteria. Second, Box is not my only source of information on the topic. Hell, the news had stories of an spike of sexual assaults by Muslims on New Year’s Eve. I recall reading stories several years ago in _Skeptical Inquirer_, hardly a conservative rumor mill. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/79 "2017-02-25T17:43:53Z")
Ugh, just had an argument with an old schoolfriend about this. His argument is, it doesn’t matter if the facts are that Malmo’s rape stats are down to better recording, and the spike is falling and precedes the recent influx of migrants/refugees, he says that his friends know someone who’ve been raped, and regardless of the facts, they should be ‘put into context’, whatever that means. I can only think he’s implying that facts and statistics take second-fiddle to feelings and anecdotes, and that ‘context’ means ‘change the facts to fit the conclusion’ Or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/80 "2017-02-25T17:46:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Thank you for the article. The idea that there are areas effectively under Sharia Law in Europe is false, but the concern that the Muslims desire to convert Europe is not entirely baseless. “_The_ Muslims”? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219.md?page=5)