# What happened in Sweden? (Trump campaign rally statement) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 19, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219 "2017-02-19T14:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/81 "2017-02-25T18:07:35Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well, it seems that after he spews some bullshit, he seems to start to believe it, which is like dementia. > > But [when Peter Alexander pointed out his bullshit last Thursday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZhxgz5yJU), he seemed to realize it, and tried to weasel out of it by saying, “I was given that information.” Wow. I wish he’d followed up that question about how the American people are to trust him when he’s providing false information while denigrating the media for “fake news” with this one: “How can you as president, trust advisors who are apparently providing incomplete, inaccurate, and misleading information to him that is causing him to mislead the American public? And as a follow-up, are you now considering vetting that information provided to you more closely before disseminating it?” ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/82 "2017-02-25T18:54:57Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Ugh, just had an argument with an old schoolfriend about this. His argument is, it doesn’t matter if the facts are that Malmo’s rape stats are down to better recording, and the spike is falling and precedes the recent influx of migrants/refugees, he says that his friends know someone who’ve been raped, and regardless of the facts, they should be ‘put into context’, whatever that means. > > I can only think he’s implying that facts and statistics take second-fiddle to feelings and anecdotes, and that ‘context’ means ‘change the facts to fit the conclusion’ > > Or am I missing something? Or maybe he just takes the stats with a pinch of salt? Swedish authorities do have previous for downplaying sexual assaults by minorities. A decade ago the parents of Rotherham would have had no idea a rape crimewave was on their doorstep _if they only looked at official statistics_. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/83 "2017-02-25T18:57:50Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Or maybe he just takes the stats with a pinch of salt? Swedish authorities do have previous for downplaying sexual assaults by minorities. A decade ago the parents of Rotherham would have had no idea a rape crimewave was on their doorstep _if they only looked at official statistics_. I get that, but as I’ve also been in receipt of anecdotal data from people in Malmo that there is no rape crimewave caused by refugees/migrants, I don’t see which can be taken more seriously. If it was one-sided that locals insisted it was a problem, sure, it should be investigated more closely. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/84 "2017-02-25T19:15:59Z")
I mean, the point about Rotherham is, we didn’t just suddenly believe anecdote, rumour and assumption - we discovered the data was incomplete, and improved data led to action. We didn’t just decide to blame a section of society because it ‘made sense’ or made us feel good. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/85 "2017-02-25T19:28:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know if you realized when you posted this, but it’s an interesting observation to me at least: Orlando’s murder rate last year was primarily driven by a single event - the deadliest terrorist attack in America since 9/11 - the Pulse nightclub shooting, where a **radicalized Muslim** killed 49 other people Bolding mine. Let’s be clear: your “radicalized Muslim” was an American-born citizen of immigrant parents who’d been in the U.S. legally for over 30 years and who has been reported to have been violent and troubled since elementary school. He also seemed to have a preoccupation with guns and was reported to be mentally unstable. I wonder how much his family’s religion had to do with the shooting given all the other factors of it that are shared by so many other mass shootings. I wonder why it’s so important to point out the religion of Muslim shooters but not that of non-Muslim shooters. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/86 "2017-02-25T19:36:45Z")
How about exending the tme frame a little: > [@](#): > > Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American Christian domestic terrorist convicted[3] and executed[4] for the detonation of a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.[5] Commonly referred to as the Oklahoma City bombing, the attack killed 168 people and injured over 600.[6] According to the United States Government, it was the deadliest act of terrorism within the United States prior to the September 11 attacks, and remains the most significant act of domestic terrorism in United States history. I added the ‘Christian’ part as Wikipedia hasn’t got around t that yet > **[Timothy McVeigh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh)** > > Timothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was an American domestic terrorist who perpetrated the Oklahoma City bombing on April 19, 1995. The bombing killed 168 people (19 of whom were children), injured 680, and destroyed one-third of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. It remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history. > A Gulf War veteran, McVeigh became radicalized by anti-government beliefs. He sought revenge against the United States federal government for ... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/87 "2017-02-25T19:44:45Z")
You might as well toss in the Unabomber, too. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/88 "2017-02-25T21:32:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You might as well toss in the Unabomber, too. I don’t know of any evidence that Ted Kaczynski was a Christian or a member of any other organized or semi-organized religion, but I’d be interested in seeing some. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/89 "2017-02-25T22:30:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t know of any evidence that Ted Kaczynski was a Christian or a member of any other organized or semi-organized religion, but I’d be interested in seeing some. I think he was being somewhat sarcastic in the sense of suggesting that Kaczynski was as Christian as McVeigh. McVeigh was raised nominally Catholic professed to be an agnostic though just before dying requested a priest. Like most Polish Americans of his generation, Kaczynski was raised nominally Catholic but I think he came to more vocally reject it than McVeigh did. I don’t think either’s actions could be connected at all to their religious backgrounds or beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/90 "2017-02-25T22:36:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think he was being somewhat sarcastic in the sense of suggesting that Kaczynski was as Christian as McVeigh. > > McVeigh was raised nominally Catholic professed to be an agnostic though just before dying requested a priest. > > Like most Polish Americans of his generation, Kaczynski was raised nominally Catholic but I think he came to more vocally reject it than McVeigh did. > > I don’t think either’s actions could be connected at all to their religious backgrounds or beliefs. Ah, you could be right about it being sarcasm ; sarcasm can be tough to discern on the internet. Do you have a cite for Kaczynski being raised nominally Catholic? I’ve never seen anything referring to any religious aspect of his life. [The Wikipedia page doesn’t mention anything, for instance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski). ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/91 "2017-02-25T22:56:05Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I mean, the point about Rotherham is, we didn’t just suddenly believe anecdote, rumour and assumption - we discovered the data was incomplete, and improved data led to action. > > We didn’t just decide to blame a section of society because it ‘made sense’ or made us feel good. A minor quibble about your wording; we discovered the data from Rotherham was being deliberately hidden rather than incomplete. To be honest what you or I think about Rotherham or Malmo is of minor importance. Neither of us are experiencing the situation their from day to day. The only way the stats should effect us is on whether we think Trump has a point. With regards to the actual situation on the ground in Malmo or Rotherham the only people whose opinions really matter are locals. It is Malmo locals who experience their own lives and community relations at first hand. Certainly the locals of Rotherham suspected something was amiss long before official stats caught up with their concerns. Now, the locals of Malmo may be wrong about fearing immigrants; their fears may be irrational. However, im sitting here in a comfy suburb in the UK. I am not about to tell Malmo locals they have little or nothing to fear from immigrants. _They_ know far better than you or I what currently concerns them. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/92 "2017-02-26T02:36:46Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > First off, I was not using Box as a cite of the legitimacy of no-go zones, I was using him as a cite that there has been concern in Europe over problems caused by Muslim immigrants, including high crime areas and increased cases of rape and assault. My cite from Ted Chiang’s short story shows that there has been a concern for years about the problems caused by alien invasions from outer space. Why does the media not give more reporting to these genuine concerns? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/93 "2017-02-26T05:07:51Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I wonder how much his family’s religion had to do with the shooting given all the other factors of it that are shared by so many other mass shootings. I wonder why it’s so important to point out the religion of Muslim shooters but not that of non-Muslim shooters. Wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > In the hours before the shooting, Mateen used several Facebook accounts to write posts vowing vengeance for American airstrikes in Iraq and Syria and to search for content related to terrorism. These posts, since deleted, were recovered and included in an open letter by Senate Homeland Security Chairman Ron Johnson to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg seeking further information about Mateen’s use of the site. > > During the shooting, Mateen made a 9-1-1 call claiming, among others, it was an act of retaliation for the killing of ISIL militant Abu Waheeb in an airstrike the previous week. His professed motive had a whole lot to do with his religion, which is why I mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/94 "2017-02-26T09:29:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Wikipedia says: > His professed motive had a whole lot to do with his religion, which is why I mentioned it. I didn’t see religion mentioned. You’re inferring he was seeking revenge for Islam and not for the people the USA bombed several thousands miles away from its own borders? Ah, but of course, the USA only kills ‘known terrorists’. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/95 "2017-02-26T12:16:53Z")
It seems an “expert” featured on The O’Reilly Factor was nothing of the sort… [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/26/fox-news-nils-bildt-swedish-defence-advisor-unknown-to-countrys-military-officials](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/26/fox-news-nils-bildt-swedish-defence-advisor-unknown-to-countrys-military-officials) ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/96 "2017-02-26T12:39:45Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > It seems an “expert” featured on The O’Reilly Factor was nothing of the sort… It’s not as though it’s the first time, either. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30773297](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30773297) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/97 "2017-02-26T17:33:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > . . . but the concern that the Muslims desire to convert Europe is not entirely baseless. It is true that there is a concern among some ill-informed people, based on the rhetoric of xenophobes, that such a Muslim desire exists. However, there is no general movement or desire among Muslims (in or out of Europe) for any such conversion. When Bat Ye’or/Gisèle Littman, Christopher Caldwell, Mark Steyn, Niall Ferguson, Geert Wilders, or other vile haters, (to be unthinkingly quoted by idiots and politics-driven xenophobes such Bill O’Reilly and Ann Coulter or Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum) make their bold claims about what “Muslims want,” they are generally talking about a fringe group of Muslims who do not even live in Europe (ISIS/Caliphate groupies) or they are making it up for their own political purposes. Studies in Europe persistently demonstrate that Muslim immigrants have been happy to assimilate into European culture. Rather than wishing to self-segregate and live by themselves, immigrant segregation has been the result of poor immigrants settling in the most affordable (cheapest) housing along with the rules of several European nations that makes it difficult for non-citizens to purchase housing. And, as noted in the notorious “Muslim” riots in France, a few years ago, most of the rioters were unemployed kids who had already turned away from the faith of their parents. In other words, the only connection religion had to the violence was that the rioters, who no longer held those beliefs, perceived themselves to have been persecuted for being associated with that religion. The concerns may be truly felt, but they are based on lies and old fashioned xenophobia. (For a good examination of this phenomenon, check out The Myth of the Muslim Tide: Do Immigrants Threaten the West? by Doug Saunders.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/98 "2017-02-26T19:45:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The concerns may be truly felt, but they are based on lies and old fashioned xenophobia. Absolutely right. Trouble is, for many Republicans their _feelings_ are more important than factual information. For some of them, this is uncomfortable, because they know deep down that facts are important. Lucky for them, they can now fall back on the “FAKE NEWS!” bullshit that is being promoted by their Dear Leader, and now they can simply pretend the facts don’t even exist. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/99 "2017-02-26T22:26:55Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I didn’t see religion mentioned. You’re inferring he was seeking revenge for Islam and not for the people the USA bombed several thousands miles away from its own borders? > > Ah, but of course, the USA only kills ‘known terrorists’. I don’t know if it really counts as an “inference” when the guy pledged allegiance to ISIS during the middle of his terrorist attack. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Mateen) is a little more detail: > [@](#): > > In a call to 9-1-1 during the shooting, Mateen identified himself as “Mujahideen”, “Islamic Soldier”, and “Soldier of God”; and pledged his allegiance multiple times to the Sunni militant jihadist group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). He said the shooting was “triggered” by an airstrike in Iraq that killed Abu Wahib, an ISIL commander, weeks before. It’s about as classic a case of Islamic terrorism as I can come up with. You seem to be trying to argue that his religion had nothing to do with it. That seems like a silly argument to try to make, but I’ll be delighted if you continue trying. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219/100 "2017-02-26T22:35:38Z")
ETA: I’ll get back to this … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-in-sweden-trump-campaign-rally-statement/780219.md?page=6)