# What happened to B-17 'Visibility Perfect', 401st Bomb Group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2024, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117 "2024-05-27T03:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/1 "2024-05-27T03:01:53Z")
What happened to B-17 ‘Visibility Perfect’, 401st Bomb Group? I have an idea it was a B-17E. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/2 "2024-05-27T11:39:09Z")
[![](https://worldwarwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/visability-jacket.jpg) ](https://worldwarwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/visability-jacket.jpg) > Perfect indeed, this B-17 bomber crew flew with the 401st Bomb Group. It was extremely hard to find any information on this girl, so we’ll give you folks some homework. If anyone knows anything about _Visibility Perfect_, let us know. > **[12 Badass Bomber Jackets You Have To See](https://worldwarwings.com/10-most-badass-bomber-jackets-from-wwii/2/)** > > I Really, Really Want These! > Before we show you these great World War II bomber jacket pinups from World War II, we'll give you a brief history about how they actually came about. Obviously the pinup art in the back of the jackets was, well, exactly... ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/3 "2024-05-27T13:20:42Z")
A friend painted my A-2 jacket that way, out of a picture I have in _Vintage Aircraft Nose Art_. We were watching B-17s last night, and got curious. The aircraft might be mentioned in _The Mighty Eighth War Diary_ (or it may not be), but I haven’t looked yet. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/4 "2024-05-27T15:21:30Z")
The 401st Bombardment Group’s alumni association doesn’t list that aircraft nickname in their roster of aircraft. [http://401bg.org/Main/History/Aircraft/](http://401bg.org/Main/History/Aircraft/) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/5 "2024-05-27T15:38:33Z")
Lots of unnamed aircraft there. I wonder if she was one of those? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/6 "2024-05-27T15:50:54Z")
I sent an email to the Historian at your link, providing a link to the image and including the readable printed portions of the image. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/7 "2024-05-27T17:52:04Z")
Best I can tell, it was in the 614th Bomb Squadron, based on the squadron patch on the front. [Visibility Perfect | 401st Bomb Group (remember-our-heroes.nl)](https://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/photos/picture.php?/20421/category/1775) But it doesn’t show up in any online nose art searches or any aircraft searches. One in particular says “Concept”, and it’s for a page that appears to produce modern replicas of historical nose art. [custompage (fightingcolors.com)](http://fightingcolors.com/custompagestuff/custompage.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/8 "2024-05-27T18:08:35Z")
> [@bump](#): > > One in particular says “Concept” I searched for “B-17” “MW-H” and found this: > ### Missing Air Crew Report # 772 > > 384th Bomb Group > [https://384thbombgroup.com](https://384thbombgroup.com) › MACR772 > ([https://384thbombgroup.com/\_content/MACRs/MACR772.pdf](https://384thbombgroup.com/_content/MACRs/MACR772.pdf)) > > Army. RECEIVED. 1 Inel: n/c. 77 DEC 1943. Deat. _MW.H_ … _MW.H_. #q. 1st Bomb Division, APO 634, 7 December, 1943 … _B-17_ GANKED RAIDER") WHOSE OF YOEN. SYON NAY BE … I was unable to read much of the .pdf document, which comprises photocopies of original documents. I did not see ‘MW-H’ as depicted in the nose art on your link. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/9 "2024-05-27T19:40:22Z")
That MW-H wasn’t really a usual sort of identifier for the 8th Air Force. Typically the 8th AF planes had their group and wing defined by a letter & shape on the tail. My grandfather was in the 385th bomb group, and his bomb group had a G designating the 385th, inside a square denoting the 3rd Air Division. Another group in the same division (the 94th) had an “A” in the same square. And so on and so forth. [USAAF unit identification aircraft markings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAAF_unit_identification_aircraft_markings) Each plane was identified by a part of the serial number on the tail- usually they’d leave the leading “4” off. For example, here’s the “Mission Belle” (42-30197) of the 385th BG: [![](https://www.385thbga.com/wp-content/gallery/aircraft/42-30197Mission-Belle-Flying.jpg) ](https://www.385thbga.com/wp-content/gallery/aircraft/42-30197Mission-Belle-Flying.jpg) I suppose it could be some kind of Pacific insignia, but what makes that particular nose art really weird is that there weren’t usually _any_ insignia right where the nose art was; that was usually on the wings and tail. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/10 "2024-05-27T19:52:09Z")
In any case, the photo **PastTense** posted looks original, and identifies the wearer as being from the 401st Bomb Group. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/11 "2024-05-28T10:13:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > A friend painted my A-2 jacket that way I thought you meant you flew an A-2 😮 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/12 "2024-05-28T15:48:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That MW-H wasn’t really a usual sort of identifier for the 8th Air Force. Here’s the _Memphis Belle_: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/The_crew_of_the_B-17_%22Memphis_Belle%22.jpg/800px-The_crew_of_the_B-17_%22Memphis_Belle%22.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/The_crew_of_the_B-17_%22Memphis_Belle%22.jpg/800px-The_crew_of_the_B-17_%22Memphis_Belle%22.jpg) > Each side of the fuselage bore the [unit and aircraft identification markings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAAF_unit_identification_aircraft_markings) of a B-17 of the 324th Bomb Squadron (Heavy), with the squadron code “DF” and individual aircraft letter “A”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/13 "2024-05-28T16:40:17Z")
If it was in the 614th squadron, then its squadron code would have been “IW”, and it’s wing/group insignia would have been a “S” in a triangle. ---
**Author:** ![stledger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@stledger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stledger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/14 "2024-07-30T16:06:19Z")
My father, Robert E. St. Ledger, was the tail gunner on the Visibility Perfect crew. I say crew because the 613th squadron history shows them as flying in several different aircraft. The pilot was John W. McGoldrick. The crew reported to the 613th in September 1944. On 9 Feb 45 mission against Lutzkendorf/Eisenach was the first mission they were a lead crew. In Mar 45, all lead crews were reassigned to the 615th squadron. The crew flew a total of 31 missions. I don’t know what the Visibility Perfect tail number was. The tail markings were a letter S, in a black triangle, with a broad yellow diagonal stripe, and a black letter K below the S. The letters KYD were on the fuselage. My father said the aircraft had a radar in place of the ball turret. That’s all the info I have. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/15 "2024-07-30T17:37:22Z")
Welcome @stledger! Tell us more about your father’s experiences in the war! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/16 "2024-08-02T21:58:43Z")
> [@stledger](#): > > I say crew because the 613th squadron history shows them as flying in several different aircraft. That was actually pretty standard practice. Crewmen were assigned to a specific crew and that crew to a specific aircraft, but if that aircraft was out of commission for some reason, they’d fly on whatever planes were available. And if the whole crew wasn’t at the same mission tally, the guys who were behind would fly as replacements on other crews for wounded/sick crewman to catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/17 "2024-08-06T20:44:41Z")
Beautiful aircraft. “B-17” is definitely my favourite of the shorter scenes in “Heavy Metal” written by Dan O’Bannon. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/18 "2024-08-06T21:14:32Z")
**The Illustrated Biography of the B-17s and the Men Who Flew Them** is a great book on the plane. It has tons of photos, production documentation, schematic drawings and pages from the training manual. If you have an account you can access the full book on the internet archive. [Flying Fortress: The Illustrated Biography of the B-17s and the Men Who Flew Them](https://archive.org/details/flyingfortressil0000jabl/mode/2up) ---
**Author:** ![stledger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@stledger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stledger)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/19 "2025-03-01T17:28:03Z")
Sorry it took me so long to answer your request. My father (Robert E. St. Ledger) did not talk much about his missions. He talked more about training. He was drafted and flunked out of pilot training because he couldn’t land. He was assigned to a B-29 crew, but caught the flu and washed back to B-17 training. That B-29 crew was lost with all hands in the Pacific. He talked about learning to shoot the .50 cal guns, and shooting skeet as part of training. He was an excellent shot with a shot gun. He sat on a board at his tail gunner station, and an one mission shrapnel entered below his seat, and exited above his seat. Either he was leaning forward at the time, or the shrapnel flew a curved path. It should have passed through his body. In a reunion in the 80s, he found out that his pilot was not strong enough to hold the yoke back on take off, and his copilot had to help him on takeoffs. Sorry, but he didn’t talk about anything else. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117/20 "2025-03-01T18:48:11Z")
> [@stledger](#): > > He talked about learning to shoot the .50 cal guns, and shooting skeet as part of training. He was an excellent shot with a shot gun. Yeah, that’s something my grandfather mentioned as well. In fact, his prowess at skeet shooting was part of how he ended up a gunner; he had originally enlisted with the intention of learning how to be an aircraft mechanic. But apparently he was extremely good at the skeet shooting and gunnery practice, so they made him a gunner. He did end up rated as a flight engineer though, so I suppose the early mechanic school wasn’t all for naught. After he finished his 25 missions between September 1943 and the very end of December 1943 (his last mission was December 30, IIRC), he was rotated back to the US, where he taught as a gunnery instructor for the rest of the war- for B-29s! He liked them, because they were heated and pressurized, and the nerd in him really was entertained by the gunnery system. Unlike the B-17 where each gun was controlled directly by a gunner, the B-29 had gunner stations, and separate remotely controlled guns that had some sort of method for being controlled by the gunner stations. Apparently it was quite space-age for 1944, so he was intrigued by it. (this is a man who built his own color TV about a decade later from a Heathkit kit). The funniest things he’d talk about were the comments on the crew- apparently one of the officers was considerably younger than the others, and as a result wanted to hang around with the enlisted crew who were closer in age to him. My grandfather said he’d do stuff like hide in culverts and pop out and try to hitch a ride into town and other stuff like that. My grandfather himself was nicknamed “Pops” or “Gramps” or something like that, because he was the hoary old age of 29 or so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-b-17-visibility-perfect-401st-bomb-group/1002117.md?page=2)