# What happened to Dzhokhar Tsarnaev between the shootout and arrest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174 "2015-03-17T03:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/21 "2015-03-20T08:19:34Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > So they put 100+ holes in that boat, knowing what part of the boat he was in, and he STILL came out alive? :smack: That’s why I suspect the firing was uncoordinated and haphazard. Note that it started before Tsarnaev fired a shot - he had no gun - and it ended when somebody gave a ceasefire order. My WAG was the everyone was nervous, jumpy and had an itchy trigger finger, and once the first shot went off everybody started blazing away until whoever was in charge could make himself heard over the rattle of small-arms fire. Yes, the police had infra red images, but the fact that Tsarnaev survived may suggest that, at the time they were shooting, the shooters didn’t have access to those images, or to information from those images. Which, again, is consistent with a scenario in which the shooting was kind of uncontrolled, rather than the execution of a tactically considered order. I stress, I am not criticising the police officers. In their situation, I might well have done the same. But that’s not inconsistent with thinking that maybe this operation could have been better executed, with less danger to police officers and to the public. And the notion that you can “diffuse a dangerous situation with gunfire” _is_ a verty striking one. Gunfire doesn’t diffuse danger; it is itself inherently dangerous. That’s pretty much the point of it. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/22 "2015-03-20T09:20:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > That’s why I suspect the firing was uncoordinated and haphazard. Note that it started before Tsarnaev fired a shot - he had no gun - and it ended when somebody gave a ceasefire order. My WAG was the everyone was nervous, jumpy and had an itchy trigger finger, and once the first shot went off everybody started blazing away until whoever was in charge could make himself heard over the rattle of small-arms fire. We see that everyday in both movies and C.O.P.S. style live video. Ten guys have their weapons pointed at someone, one guy shoots then they all do. They’re trying to be protective with support fire, but hundreds of shots at an unarmed guy can also deduce that a “Dead men tell no tales” situation was desired by the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/23 "2015-03-20T13:03:36Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I’d say “shoot the fuck out of him before he has a chance” is a reasonable action to take for public safety at that point. Jesus. Which is fine, if you’re Joe Q. Public. If you’re a professional police organization, perhaps it’s a sub-optimal solution. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/24 "2015-03-20T13:22:29Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I’d say “shoot the fuck out of him before he has a chance” is a reasonable action to take for public safety at that point. Jesus. Not at all. You’re justifying “shoot first and ask questions later”. Would the cops accept that answer from a group of men who chased someone (even a murderer or rapist) into a boat or shed and then just opened fire on it, blindly shooting hundreds of rounds? “Well, we were worried for our safety.” Yeah, right. The asshole is getting his due at trial. It’s not up to the cops to take revenge or act as executioners out in the field. As for the OP, I have no idea how the bomber survived all of those bullets being shot into the boat. One guess is that most of the rounds were 9mm or similar handgun rounds, and the boat’s dense wood structure absorbed much of the energy, especially if he found something dense to hide behind (I know nothing about boats). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/25 "2015-03-20T13:37:09Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I stress, I am not criticising the police officers. In their situation, I might well have done the same. But that’s not inconsistent with thinking that maybe this operation could have been better executed, with less danger to police officers and to the public. And the notion that you can “diffuse a dangerous situation with gunfire” _is_ a verty striking one. Gunfire doesn’t diffuse danger; it is itself inherently dangerous. That’s pretty much the point of it. A psycho is holding a group of people hostage. He’s holding a gun, but at one point he’s not pointing it at any hostage, so the police sniper shoots him in the head. The dangerous situation is now over. How would you describe that? > [@dnooman](#): > > We see that everyday in both movies and C.O.P.S. style live video. Ten guys have their weapons pointed at someone, one guy shoots then they all do. They’re trying to be protective with support fire, but hundreds of shots at an unarmed guy can also deduce that a “Dead men tell no tales” situation was desired by the cops. They had no idea he was unarmed. He and/or his brother had been shooting at police earlier, so they had to assume he was still armed, and still willing to shoot at cops. They had no way to know that 2 guys who managed to assemble several homemade bombs only had a single gun between them. Trying to attribute any sort of “They wanted to kill him on the spot” motive to the cops is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/26 "2015-03-20T14:52:35Z")
It’s called deadly force, each authorized entity has their own definition albeit somewhat the same. Here is a list of [Rules and Procedures for the Boston PD](http://bpdnews.com/rules-and-procedures/?rq=deadly%20force) and you would want to look at 303 Deadly Force. Below is a snippet, bolding mine, so yes, the Boston PD was legally allowed to discharge their firearms: > [@](#): > > B. There is no less drastic means available to apprehend a fleeing felon when the officer has probable cause to believe that: **(1) the subject has committed a felony during the commission of which they inflicted or threatened to inflict deadly force upon the victim, or (2) that there is substantial risk that the felon in question will cause death or great bodily injury if their apprehension is delayed, or** However, after this section we also have: > [@](#): > > Officers who find it necessary, under the provisions of this rule, to discharge firearms shall exercise due care for the safety of persons and property in the area and shall fire only when reasonably certain that there is no substantial risk to bystanders. So, there was a bit of a melee involved here which I find disturbing. I do not know the gun qualification procedure for Boston PD, but, unless they are trained on moving targets then they should not be discharging their weapons as per Section 8: > [@](#): > > Sec. 8 Moving/Fleeing Vehicles: Firearms shall not be discharged from a moving vehicle. Firearms shall not be discharged at a moving or fleeing vehicle unless the officer or another person is currently being threatened with deadly force by means other than the moving vehicle. For the purposes of this section, the moving vehicle itself shall not constitute the threatened use of deadly force. Therefore, officers shall move out of the path of any oncoming vehicle instead of discharging a firearm at it or any of its occupants. Moving to cover, repositioning and/or waiting for additional responding units to gain and maintain a tactically superior police advantage maximizes officer safety and minimizes the necessity for using deadly force. Ok, I’m done for the moment… ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/27 "2015-03-20T21:19:09Z")
The bombing was in Boston, the shootout and boat capture were in Watertown. Massachusetts State Police was the lead agency in his apprehension. I don’t know what policy differences there are between the three agencies. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/28 "2015-03-20T22:22:31Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes. Gunfire doesn’t diffuse or dissipate a danger of violence; it realises it. In this case, one could say it transferred the target of the danger from the public to the perpetrator and the authorities (who may be innocent, but it’s their job to assume danger). I’m sure it was in the news coverage at the time, but I can’t remember: how were they totally super-sure that it was Tsarnaev in the boat, and not some homeless person seeking shelter? or a some neighborhood kid playing a prank? I understand the number of bullets fired if it’s absolutely Tsarnaev in the boat, but not if they are not absolutely sure. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/29 "2015-03-21T00:27:28Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Now he is hiding in a boat. He knows he is cornered. His brother has been killed. You don’t know if he has a weapon, more bombs, or what condition he is in. He could be in perfect health, desperate, and crazed. At any moment, he could pop out from under the boat and shoot at you. > > I’d say “shoot the fuck out of him before he has a chance” is a reasonable action to take for public safety at that point. Jesus. Couldn’t they have lobbed a metric shitload of tear gas at him? Hmmm… maybe the tarp covering the boat would have made it unlikely the gas would affect him? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/30 "2015-03-22T02:21:07Z")
I do criticize the police. They had the situation well under control. They had helicopters, SWAT teams, and the ability to hold back and demand a surrender, and one has to assume that one of the fellows with a rifle could take him out at will if he popped up. We all saw the infrared images that allowed the police to see what he’s doing, or at least if he’s moving in a threatening way. The emotional overreaction of the police, with hundreds of rounds fired, shows how unprofessional and “un-cool” (in the calm & collected sense of the word) they were. Sorry guys. You looked like buffoons to me. I expect better from a professional force. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/31 "2015-03-22T06:28:34Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > A psycho is holding a group of people hostage. He’s holding a gun, but at one point he’s not pointing it at any hostage, so the police sniper shoots him in the head. The dangerous situation is now over. How would you describe that? I’d say the dangerous situation was over in the sense that, when an airplane has crashed, the danger of the airplane crashing is over. If you have a armed confrontation, the danger is that someone will be injured or killed. If one side starts shooting, the danger is obviously increased. If somebody gets injured or killed, the danger has been realised. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/32 "2015-03-22T09:25:52Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I do criticize the police. > > They had the situation well under control. They had helicopters, SWAT teams, and the ability to hold back and demand a surrender, and one has to assume that one of the fellows with a rifle could take him out at will if he popped up. We all saw the infrared images that allowed the police to see what he’s doing, or at least if he’s moving in a threatening way. > > The emotional overreaction of the police, with hundreds of rounds fired, shows how unprofessional and “un-cool” (in the calm & collected sense of the word) they were. > > Sorry guys. You looked like buffoons to me. I expect better from a professional force. I tend to agree with this. There has never been an instance where the dude produced a weapon, but the boat was shot up. I think my question in the OP will probably remain unanswered. Nobody said “Fire” , yet the boat was riddled with bullets.Fine. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/33 "2015-03-22T11:28:18Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The police are not society’s revenge squad. They should not get to carelessly exercise extreme force unless they have to. Dumping 1000 rounds into a sail boat shows less of a concern for public safety than for killing the suspect. Corrrect, but, not for the reasons that you think. It shows NO concern for public safety because PUBLIC SAFETY WASN"T AN ISSUE. They knew the suspect was in the boat, and there was no ‘public’ involved. Also, you’re a bit confused on your other statement: “They should not get to carelessly exercise extreme force unless they have to.” I’ll go further: “They should \*never \*get to _carelessly_ exercise extreme force. There is never a need to carelessly exercise any force.” They do, however, have a right to exercise extreme force. Further, the fact that Tsarnaev made it to the station alive shows that the police, at least, didn’t think of themselves as 'society’s revenge squad." ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/34 "2015-03-22T11:33:23Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > I think my question in the OP will probably remain unanswered. Nobody said “Fire” . I thought that the questions from the OP were all answered. Did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/35 "2015-03-23T18:09:36Z")
> [@KCB615](#): > > The bombing was in Boston, the shootout and boat capture were in Watertown. Massachusetts State Police was the lead agency in his apprehension. I don’t know what policy differences there are between the three agencies. Thanks! Any ways, I did some Googling and I was not able to find anything as explicit as Boston PD has. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/36 "2015-03-24T17:49:54Z")
If you look at the linked infrared photos, he’s hiding behind some box or container in the middle of the boat. If the police were using 9mm, if the box contained additional objects, perhaps it would stop bullets fairly effectively. The argument against using deadly force, or revenge killing, is of course that a significant goal of such operations is to capture someone alive and interrogate them. I’m sure whatever he’s said, the information about contacts back in the old country has been passed to the Russians, etc. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/37 "2015-03-24T19:03:26Z")
This is an interesting dilemma. You know he is in there but you don’t know if he is armed. And if armed, with what? More IEDs to throw or maybe a suicide vest? Either way, aside from bombing the marathon, he threw the IED’s and was shooting at officers, killed an MIT campus LEO, and ran over his brother. Unless he willingly steps out of the boat, it is prudent to expect resistance. Possibly more IEDs and possibly gunfire. The FLIR can see through thin materials like the tarp but it won’t be able to determine if he has a gun under his body, or an IED. If he had been wearing a suicide vest all day, it would be at body temp by now, and then under a jacket, they really would have no idea. So, until a situation arises where shooting someone in this manner sets of a suicide vest then there really isn’t anything to go on for municipal PD’s other than what already happened. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/38 "2015-03-24T20:01:34Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I’d say “shoot the fuck out of him before he has a chance” is a reasonable action to take for public safety at that point. Absolutely. > [@dnooman](#): > > He even ran over his own brother (needlessly according to the article I read). He _may_ have wanted Tamerlan not to be taken alive, even if leaving him to die from gunshot wounds would have made him (in his eyes) a martyr for Islam like he wanted to be. AFAIK Dzhokhar has never said why he did it, or even if it was intentional. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Correction, not a danger of violence, but an attempt to diffuse a dangerous situation. Or even defuse it. > [@Senegoid](#): > > What about the boat owner? Who takes the loss for his leaky boat? In this case, the owner got enough donations from sympathetic boat owners across the country to buy several replacements. He donated the rest to the victims’ fund. The shot-up boat is in FBI (at least federal) custody and has already been introduced as evidence at the trial. No idea who legally owns it at this point. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/39 "2015-04-03T17:52:35Z")
[Marathon Bombing Report: ‘Weapons Discipline Was Lacking’ in Watertown](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2015/04/03/marathon-bombing-report-weapons-discipline-was-lacking-watertown/zPRcRmVbxbjDQ6NmBa1XzN/story.html) ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174/40 "2015-04-03T18:21:59Z")
Do the Massachusetts State Police commonly use excessive force, shooting the crap out of boats and criminals, or is it just this time? I don’t know the exact details but if there weren’t any public around, there were still police officers, and I don’t think they count _less_ than the public. I’m sure, if you asked them, they would say their safety is equally as important as the public’s. So you have some mad bomber, you know he wants to die a martyr and take as many non-believers with him, hidden in a boat that isn’t going to provide you much protection if he has a massive IED in there. None of you are soldiers, trained to kill and put your life on the line for Queen and country, you’re Police officers, going about your daily business giving traffic tickets and trying to settle domestic disputes. I think they should be given a break, in this circumstance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-between-the-shootout-and-arrest/715174.md?page=3)