# What happened to geeks and nerds in the dark ages? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929 "2008-09-04T02:18:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/21 "2008-09-04T16:50:15Z")
One thing we haven’t mentioned is that your typical peasant had virtually no education or even opportunity for education. If you were lucky your village might have had a church school that could have taught you how to read a few basic pieces of scripture, and more importantly, some simple arithmetic so you could buy and sell seeds and breeding stock. If you weren’t so lucky you had to learn that from your family, or perhaps be apprenticed to someone in the village. It’s hard to concentrate on developing your intellectual capacities when you’re illiterate. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/22 "2008-09-04T17:45:57Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > It’s hard to concentrate on developing your intellectual capacities when you’re illiterate. Well, I don’t think that’s necessarily true at all. I mean, there’s more to know than book stuff. A smart person with a “cataloger” bent to them could be an excellent tracker, for example, or know a ton about local herbs, or weather patterns, or as somebody upthread mentioned he might be known for his animal breeding or knowledge of local birds. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/23 "2008-09-04T18:13:39Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > You don’t need to be an extrovert or have any social skills in order to walk behind a plow. Humility was considered to be a good thing, at least in theory. You could always cast your quietness as humility. Since most people were illiterate, there were jobs for scribes and clerks. There were also law courts. Not all lawyers are outgoing. Some concentrate on legal documents. And the courts need scribes and clerks. ---
**Author:** ![WoodenTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@WoodenTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodenTaco)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/24 "2008-09-04T18:49:43Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > The Dark Ages is technically from about 400AD - 1000AD (so called because nobody really knows much about what happened then, when immediately post-Roman Empire the culture seemed to leap backwards in technology) This isn’t true. Petrarch (mid-14th century) was the one to first create this rather pernicious idea of the “dark ages,” which he saw as the fall of Rome up to his own day. He called it dark not because it was unknown but because it was a fall from the glories of the classical world. He didn’t much care about the loss of technology - he tended, like most humanists, to feud with the scholastics and academics who focused on “scientific” (I use that word in the loosest possible sense) understanding of the material world - but instead he was lamenting the loss of classical intellectualism and artistic brilliance. This was really a revolutionary metaphor at the time, since the ancient world had very, very consistently been referred to as a “dark” age because it was before the appearance of Christ, who was associated with light. The classic cite on this topic: [Petrarch's Conception of the 'Dark Ages' on JSTOR](http://www.jstor.org/stable/2856364) Today, however, academic historians strongly avoid the term “Dark Ages.” Periodization in general is quite unfashionable since it so rarely works to satisfaction, and the “Dark Ages” is in many ways an inaccurate portrayal of the period which paints the centuries of time as doldrums of war, poverty, and anti-intellectualism. Obviously, nothing is that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/25 "2008-09-04T19:05:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One the Renaissance begins, your career opportunities expand. One didn’t necessarily have to wait for the renaissance. One of the attractions of town and city life was that a man desperate for opportunity could get away from the farm and try his hand at something else. This was not a done deal, however. Shopkeepers’ sons usually ended up running the shop. A coopers boy could expect to be a cooper himself. But the fact remains is that the city at least offered the chance to do something other than staring at a mules ass all day. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/26 "2008-09-04T19:14:11Z")
This discussion reminds me of a section of Mark Twain’s “Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven.” The title character is being told about the ranks of people in heaven, and it’s mentioned that Shakespeare ranks below a common tailor, from Tennessee, named Billings. > [@](#): > > That tailor Billings, from Tennessee, wrote poetry that Homer and Shakespeare couldn’t begin to come up to; but nobody would print it, nobody read it but his neighbors, an ignorant lot, and they laughed at it. Whenever the village had a drunken frolic and a dance, they would drag him in and crown him with cabbage leaves, and pretend to bow down to him; and one night when he was sick and nearly starved to death, they had him out and crowned him, and then they rode him on a rail about the village, and everybody followed along, beating tin pans and yelling. Well, he died before morning. He wasn’t ever expecting to go to heaven, much less that there was going to be any fuss made over him, so I reckon he was a good deal surprised when the reception broke on him." And later in that chapter: > [@](#): > > The greatest military genius our world ever produced was a brick-layer from somewhere back of Boston - died during the Revolution - by the name of Absalom Jones. Wherever he goes, crowds flock to see him. You see, everybody knows that if he had had a chance he would have shown the world some generalship that would have made all generalship before look like child’s play and 'prentice work. But he never got a chance; he tried heaps of times to enlist as a private, but he had lost both thumbs and a couple of front teeth, and the recruiting sergeant wouldn’t pass him. Yes, the story is satire, but I think it makes a very real point, here: You have to have the \*opportunity \* to use your natural talents or they just go to waste. A man with natural engineering ability who was born a peasant isn’t likely to get the chance to design cathedrals. You may have a gift for working with numbers, but if you get apprenticed to a butcher by your father you aren’t going to be hired by the local lord to handle his household accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/27 "2008-09-04T19:30:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Relatively few got to join the church as priests. Even if every village had a priest, it’s still a small fraction of the population. True, but nerds also make up a very small fraction of the population. We just don’t realize it now, because nowadays, we have the technology (favored by nerds in the first place) to enable nerds from all over the world to congregate and socialize with other nerds. And it should be emphasized that nerds can find ways to contribute their talents even in seemingly prosaic jobs. Suppose, for instance, that the community is all pitching in labor to build a new barn. You can build the barn half-way, discover that you don’t have enough lumber, and mill more in the middle of the job, or you can calculate from the start just how much lumber you’re going to need, and get it all ready in advance. And guess who’s going to be doing that calculation? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/28 "2008-09-04T19:50:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And guess who’s going to be doing that calculation? The member of the masonry guild who’s learned math? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/29 "2008-09-04T20:03:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The member of the masonry guild who’s learned math? Anyway, even the masonry guilds didn’t draw up plans for cathedrals. They might have been doing some back of the envelope calculations, but my understanding is that they essentially built them as they went along. You can certainly see how many of them aren’t through-composed - the different towers at Chartres were built in different styles that matched the fashions as they were completed. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/30 "2008-09-04T20:03:47Z")
So do you think that the guys who built Stonehenge bragged about how many calculations per year it could perform? Would later additions be referred to as upgrades? “Dude, check it out! I put in a 5-trilithon bluestone processor! Some seriously megalithic calculating power.” What, exactly, would ancient or medival nerds or geeks talk about? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/31 "2008-09-04T20:18:36Z")
Wow, this thread has taken off! I’m aware that the term ‘Dark Ages’ is inaccurate, which is why I only used it without capitals in a sensationalistic headline to capture attention. 🙂 A society with stratified social opportunities would have made social skills less important in some ways because you’d follow the path lad out for you anyways. I would have died at birth or ended up as a low-dog-on-the-totem-pole peasant or something. But as **Argent Towers** and **slaphead** said, you don’t _need_ social skills to chase chickens or plant potatoes or whatever smaller tasks children would do on a farm. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/32 "2008-09-05T12:36:27Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Is it at all possible that personality traits (Shyness, awkwardness, introversion) that are allowed blossom in times of plenty would have been less tolerated and stamped out in leaner times? Life in small rural villages was indeed close-knit. According to the historians Joseph and Frances Gies, a average village had 50 families. So just about everything you did was public knowledge. For most folks, leaving the village was rare. So it may have been simply impossible to not interact with the rest of the community. They’d make sure you attended all the public gatherings. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/33 "2008-09-05T16:14:09Z")
I like to think my time in an African village gives me a little insight into how things might have worked in the past. In my experience, the full range of personality traits are there. Of course there are shy, awkward, and odd people in a village setting. And village life isn’t all fields…there are marriages, festivals, childhood, religion, affairs, business, crime, and always lots and lots of gossip. Yeah, there isn’t a ton of leisure time. But if anything people are more concerned about other people’s business, because there isn’t too much else to do. The people I knew who were seemed “geeky” would find things to focus on. This could be religion, it could be nature (now and then someone would say something like “sometimes I like to go off in the bush for a few weeks and identify plants”), it could be some other subject like history or genealogy. Information was harder to come by, but they could obsess over details the same. Often things were a bit easier for them because marriages were arranged and personality wasn’t as big of a part of it. And maybe it was just Cameroon, but I found there was a lot more tolerance for general “oddness.” Everyone knew each other from childhood and so I think everyone just got used to each other’s quirks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/34 "2008-09-05T16:17:54Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And maybe it was just Cameroon, but I found there was a lot more tolerance for general “oddness.” Everyone knew each other from childhood and so I think everyone just got used to each other’s quirks. That’s true of villages and small towns everywhere. Some people are just strange, and they’re part of the community too, because what are you going to do about them? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/35 "2008-09-05T17:00:23Z")
Well, they may have just gotten jobs in technical support. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/pQHX-SjgQvQ/hqdefault.jpg "Medieval helpdesk with English subtitles") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQHX-SjgQvQ) ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/36 "2008-09-05T17:03:10Z")
OK, so what happened (happens) in more modern times? What about WWI? Vietnam? Countries today with compulsory military service? How does the soft, fat boy with glasses cope? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/37 "2008-09-05T17:49:27Z")
I am sure he sucks it up and falls in line with everyone else. It’s not like geeks are some kind of separate species of humanity or they’re genetically pre-determined to be dorks or nerds. A soft, fat boy will quickly become hard and lean if he’s put to the test. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/38 "2008-09-05T17:52:22Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > OK, so what happened (happens) in more modern times? > > What about WWI? Vietnam? Countries today with compulsory military service? How does the soft, fat boy with glasses cope? WWI You just had to be able to climb over a ridge and get butchered. That’s easy. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/39 "2008-09-05T17:54:28Z")
Yeah, I’ve heard there were plenty of doughboys in WWI… ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929/40 "2008-09-05T18:53:26Z")
I’m no expert, but it strikes me that even today, farmers are not particularly known for being outgoing, talkative, gladhanding social butterfly types. So if by ‘geek’ we mean socially withdrawn, then I’m not sure that’s always a disadvantage for a farmer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-geeks-and-nerds-in-the-dark-ages/461929.md?page=3)