# What happened to Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187 "2004-12-05T06:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/81 "2004-12-06T09:41:42Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > I genuinely wasn’t sure if you wanted my opinions, or were trying to make a point. If you are really interested in my opinions, I’m happy to give them. Yes, I did really want to know. I realise that my question was not original, but it has not been answered to my satisfaction. > [@Alan Smithee](#): > > I don’t believe in a literal afterlife. (I told you I was a heretic!) To the extent that we can use myths about an afterlife to give expression to our understanding of justice and the mystery underlying it, I would do so by saying that we are justified not by the good we actually manage to do, nor by the abstract philosophical and theological theories we hold true, but by the extent to which we embrace the good where we find it in ourselves and others. Since God is, by definition, the ultimate good, an atheist who strives for the good will find God, regardless of his metaphysical beliefs. I’m far more ambivalent about the fate of a Christian who embraces hate or fear or only wishes to avoid flames. > > Good works are not necessary to salvation, but a refusal to perform good works where one might constitutes a rejection of the good. I think this is actually the point of both doctrines. OK, that’s clear. Let me ask - if you don’t believe in a literal afterlife, what do you think happens when we die? > [@Alan Smithee](#): > > I’m sorry. I really don’t get what your point is. I wasn’t just being flippant. 😕 I meant that it confuses me that you find help in understanding your God from people whose beliefs are so radically different. > [@Alan Smithee](#): > > I don’t believe in psychic powers either. The point was that we often refuse to forgive because we don’t know the true state of a person’s heart. The point is also not whether you would have difficulty forgiving someone who was genuinely repentant, but whether you agree that is morally good to do so. You seemed to imply earlier that a God who forgave a repentant murderer was morally lax or degenerate. Well I think it’s important to consider both cases together. It is wonderfully Christian to forgive, even serial killers. I think it is appalling if the same God condemns well-behaved people to eternal torment just because they can’t find evidence of Him. > [@Alan Smithee](#): > > I don’t think goodness is identical with behavior. If a god were to send a good atheist to Hell, that god would be a monster (and therfore not, by my understanding, God in the Christian sense.) Those Christians are wrong. > No. St. Paul would agree with me. That’s fine by me. I think this comes right back to the original point (is belief in Hell less these days?) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/82 "2004-12-06T09:44:29Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > Final comment for tonight–I didn’t mean to be insulting when I said Kindergarten-level. Many people don’t get past that level, not because they are stupid or unthoughtful, but because many churches don’t try to educate people past it, and some churches are stuck at that level themselves. Besides, most of us have a roughly kindergarten-level understanding of a lot of things outside our area of expertise. > > I’m not even sure (if I haven’t made clear) that I can honestly call myself a Christian. I call myself atheist at least as often. But when people come along saying, “How can Christians believe X,Y, and Z. Those are ridiculous and evil ideas,” I feel it trivializes my struggle with what I see as a less ridiculous version of faith. > > Let me put it this way. If your understanding of Christianity is one that by your own judgement only a child would reasonably accept, then you have a childish (or child-like) understanding of Christianity. I think you were (accidentally) insulting by using the kindergarten phrase, particularly when nobody knows the true facts (as shown by the contrasting views even within this thread). But your last few posts have definitely been in the spirit of the SDMB, and I thank you for them. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/83 "2004-12-06T15:32:45Z")
My, there’s been lots of activity since I was here yesterday! Since the main discussion has been around the Eternal Destinies of the decent atheist & the repentant serial killer, though that’s been answered pretty well- I’ll toss in my own response. They both eventually face God to see their lives in His context, with all the good & bad they’ve done, and all the reverberations of their actions to others. They will experience all the joy & horror that’s due them as they go into Eternal Living or Eternal Dying, based on their ultimate response of embrace & surrender of God/Jesus. My best guess in that decent atheists will at least be embarrassed & apologetic Re their denial of God, and that repentant serial killers will be writhing in agony as they fully experientially realize the pain they caused. And btw- since devout Jews were also brought up- I imagine the vast majority will be happily surprised at the revelation of the real Jesus, with perhaps some justified anger towards certain Church Fathers, Constantine, Luther, etc. who poisoned the Christian Faith with anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/84 "2004-12-06T16:25:49Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Again, this is only for the most serious of punishments, as God is generally portrayed as a generous and forgiving God. Not in my Bible he ain’t. Have you read the Old Testament? Jehovah is a blood thirsty psychopath, no two ways about it. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/85 "2004-12-06T17:11:05Z")
I have to agree with **Smartass**'s post. God, described in that manner, is not good. To be able to help a human who is sick and/or dying and **not** do it, is not loving. Thats why I beleive God created the universe (or maybe not) and left it alone. Who gets to Heaven? I don’t know; no one knows. Hell? No thanks, don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/86 "2004-12-06T18:02:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m curious as to what you think the Bible says on the subject of Hell. I don’t see a response from **Abbie** , so I’ll take a shot. From the New Testament, we have: > [@](#): > > 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: > 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. > 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: > 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. > 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: > 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Mark 9:43-48](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+9:43-48&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) > [@](#): > > 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. > 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. [Matthew 18:8-9](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+18:8-9&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) > [@](#): > > 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. > 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. > 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [Revelation 20:13-15](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+20:13-15&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) > [@](#): > > 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. > 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; > 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. > 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. > 44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. > 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: > 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. > 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: > 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. > 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, > 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [Matthew 13:40-50](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+13:40-50&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) And then there’s the parable of the rich man in hell-- whose great sin, remember, was that he failed to feed and clothe the beggar Lazarus: > [@](#): > > 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. > 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. > 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. [Luke 16:23-25](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+16:23-25&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) So we have a lake or furnace of fire, which is never quenched, and with people getting tossed into it. If they die, they must die slowly enough to make requests for water (see the rich man parable). Add to that the language in the NT indicating that only a few will be “saved” (from Hell, presumably): > [@](#): > > 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, > 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. > 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: [Luke 13:23-25](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+13:23-25&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) See also [Matthew 7:13-14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+7:13-14&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on): > [@](#): > > 13 Enter ye in at the strait [narrow] gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: > 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Add it all up, and it starts to sound like only a few people will be “saved,” with the rest presumably tossed into the fiery pit. It never ceases to amaze me how some Christians can tap dance around these visions of Hell in the New Testament. In my view, you should either buy the whole theology or none of it. I’ll take the latter. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/87 "2004-12-06T18:41:36Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > In my view, you should either buy the whole theology or none of it. I’ll take the latter. But the New Testament is contradictory: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23). Death is the end of existence. The alternative is eternal life through Jesus Christ. It doesn’t say the wages of sin are eternal existence in torment. And note: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Matthew 18:8-9) This passage refers to the Judgement Day, when all the dead are resurrected and judged. “Hell” here is the abode of Satan and the fallen angels. Fire is a symbol of destruction, where the resurrected experience the second death. Plus: > [@](#): > > 13 Enter ye in at the strait [narrow] gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Matthew 7:13-14) The wide gate leads to destruction, not everlasting existence in torment. Thus, it depends on which of these contradictory passages one holds as true. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/88 "2004-12-06T18:58:26Z")
So people should believe in a religion that can’t get its story straight? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/89 "2004-12-06T22:36:44Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > My, there’s been lots of activity since I was here yesterday! > > Since the main discussion has been around the Eternal Destinies of the decent atheist & the repentant serial killer, though that’s been answered pretty well- I’ll toss in my own response. > > They both eventually face God to see their lives in His context, with all the good & bad they’ve done, and all the reverberations of their actions to others. They will experience all the joy & horror that’s due them as they go into Eternal Living or Eternal Dying, based on their ultimate response of embrace & surrender of God/Jesus. > > My best guess in that decent atheists will at least be embarrassed & apologetic Re their denial of God, and that repentant serial killers will be writhing in agony as they fully experientially realize the pain they caused. And btw- since devout Jews were also brought up- I imagine the vast majority will be happily surprised at the revelation of the real Jesus, with perhaps some justified anger towards certain Church Fathers, Constantine, Luther, etc. who poisoned the Christian Faith with anti-Semitism. Well actually there have been many varied responses to the atheist + repentent killer, and yours is yet another one! Speaking as an atheist, why would I be ‘embarrassed & apologetic’? What evidence is there of any God? Next you say that God will make a final decision based on their reaction. OK, I state their reactions are: Atheist ‘God, why did you create me with a sense of scientific assessment, then give me no scientific evidence of your existence?’ Killer ‘I’m very sorry.’ Now who’s going where? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/90 "2004-12-07T01:30:50Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > This is for **czarcasm** in Re: serial killers repenting: > > > [@Originally Posted by new american standard Bible](#): > > > > Mat 20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. > > Mat 20:2 "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. > > [snip] > > Mat 20:6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he \*said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ > > Mat 20:7 "They \*said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He \*said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ > > [snip] > > Mat 20:9 "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. > > Mat 20:10 "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. > > Mat 20:11 "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, > > Mat 20:12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ > > Mat 20:13 "But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? > > Mat 20:14 'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. > > Mat 20:15 ‘Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ I wonder if story was ever given as an argument against the ERA. Cause it sure would go over well with the “equal pay for equal work” crowd… ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/91 "2004-12-07T05:43:19Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > They presuppose what I consider a naive understanding: that God is a being who does (or could) speak to us like any other person. Is this not presupposed in every chapter of the Bible? And is the Bible not The Book for Christians? I think that you like Christian stories, but you clearly have taken a few steps away from the actual beliefs–as most thinking people would. Which means that most of my comments/questions in this thread really don’t apply to you. I was addressing people who believe The Book, and the God that is portrayed in it. > [@](#): > > Pain is not good, but we were already in pain, and we needed someone else to feel our pain with us, to acknowledge it, to take it on himself, to be responsible for it and for the healing that we needed. Jesus had to suffer because he was God with us, who came to forgive, and forgiveness is, at least in part, the willingness to suffer with someone and to bear the brokenness that needs forgiving. I have to admit it’s an interesting religion you are creating. A little touchy-feely for my tastes, though. > [@](#): > > You’re right. The God you described is a God only children would buy. That’s why I called it a Kindergarten-level understanding. If the majority of Christians understood their faith in the way you describe it, then this thread probably wouldn’t exist. As it is, well over 90% of the Christians I have encountered in life view it in exactly the kindergarten-level way we have been talking about it. And I ask the questions that I do in hopes that it might offend someone enough to get their attention and then shock them enough that their brains might inadvertently kick on. If I had been raised differently, I would think of this Christian claptrap as harmless. However, the way I was tortured with notions of Hell as a child has led me to think of it something different from harmless. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/92 "2004-12-07T06:11:47Z")
I’ve spent to much time on this thread to dig up quotes from St. Augustine showing that he didn’t think of them that way. I’m sure I could do the same for other great Christian thinkers. Look, here’s a suggestion. You seem pretty smart. I’m willing to guess that you have an IQ significantly above average in the US. You seem to have good critical thinking skills, which are very rare. Given the culture we live in, you’ve probably had more education and more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills than the overwelming majority of people alive during the past 2000 years, and alive today in many parts of the world. This isn’t sucking up to you, it’s a fact true of any smart person. Like many people on these boards you’re probably in the top 10% of todays society, or reasonably close to it. If you’re interested in dismissing or “disproving” Christian belief, the ideas of 90% of the Christians you’ve encountered make a fine target. If you’re an amture sociologist, interested in learning about which belief systems are popular, the ideas of 90% of the Christians you’ve encountered make a fine research topic. If you’re interested in learning spiritual ideas that might appeal to you, or challenge you, or from which you might learn, even if you don’t personally agree with them, or if you’re interested in debating Christianity on a level playing field, or you’re curious what the best ideas the Christian tradition has to offer are, or why reasonable, well educated, scientifically literate people continue to identify themselves as Christian, you would be better served by studying the ideas of that small group of Christians both today and in the past who are at least as intelligent, reasonable, well-educated, and sophisticated as you are. **I’m** certainly not claiming to be any of those things! But I have spent several years in higher education reading and studying the ideas of Chrsitians (and their critics) who are more intelligent, reasonable, well-educated, and sophisticated than either one of us. If I can spark some interest in learning about _those_ ideas and opinions in you, I’ll feel all the nights I’ve stayed up composing these posts until 4 am have been very well spent. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/93 "2004-12-07T11:44:58Z")
Alan, I appreciate that you have discovered spiritual ideas and are ready to share. My problem with all religions is that there is no evidence. With Christianity (for example), if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we are left with some pleasant social ideas, but no God. And the only reason anyone thinks Jesus did arise is 4 books, written between 30 - 100 years after the alleged Resurrection. That’s it. To add to the confusion, we have two major branches of Christianity, plus many sects and varying beliefs. As this thread shows, just asking where a couple of well-defined people will end up after death produces several contradictory answers. So please don’t take offence, but when you say ‘reasonable, well educated, scientifically literate people’ have spiritual ideas, I have to say why would they be more authorative than someone else who claims to have had a vision of God? Neither group has any proof of whether their God exists. If the ideas are valid without God, for example ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’, that’s fine by me. I can see the social benefits. But if I am told that I cannot eat meat, or must take off my shoes, or must face a certain direction, or not worship idols, or not be gay, or not believe in evolution (and so on), I want to know why that particular God wants that behaviour from me. And immediately differing views from within the same Church emerge. So I’ll be a well-behaved atheist until proof of God emerges. And if He does exist, and sends me to Hell for that, then I didn’t want to worship Him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![JMS\_CCT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbe5ce/32.png) [@JMS\_CCT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JMS_CCT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/94 "2004-12-07T14:14:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m curious as to what you think the Bible says on the subject of Hell. The word is referred to 58 times in a King James Bible. In the New Testament usage it is derived from the Greek, “Gehena,” meaning “a place of everlasting punishment.” (Strong’s) From what we see in scripture, “fire” and unbearable torment are recurrent conditions of hell. The following are a few of the more prominent examples of its usage. In the gospel of Mark, Jesus, speaking to the 12 disciples: \*\*Mark 9:45-46 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.\*\*And in Luke 16, in the story of the rich man who ended up there: **Luke 16:23-26 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.** The Apostle Paul never uses the word hell in his epistles, but describes a place and its conditions that match the above: **II Th 1:7-9 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;** Under grace (Romans 6:14), as the world presently is, there are no “rules” one must keep in order to avert hell or access heaven (Romans 11:6). It’s not about right or wrong doing, it’s about ceasing from believing there is something you must do or not do, and simply trusting Christ as your saviour (Romans 4:4,5; 10:9; Ephesians 1:12,13,14). If someone goes to hell now, it’s by default–i.e., they refused God’s offer of the gift of salvation by grace (Eph. 2:8,9) ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/95 "2004-12-07T16:36:32Z")
**glee** , believe it or not, I’m not trying to convert you and **Smartass**. The approach I described is the smae one I use in studying other religions, as well as philosophy, art, social sciences, Hollywood movies, and cuisine–seek to engage the best the field has to offer, always assume the “most favorable reading”, approach with an open spirit as well as a critical eye, and try to glean whatever is insightful, thought-provoking, inspirational, instructive, or useful, rather than dismissing the entire field on the bases of that which is inferior or merely common or popular. Look, I think Freudianism as a science is a bunch of bullshit, but that doesn’t mean Freud and his followers haven’t had deep and profound insights about human nature and experience or that a Freudian couldn’t offer me deep insight into my own life. When I meet a Freudian, I do more than simply point out the theoretical and methodological flaws in her belief system (though I may at some point do that); I also listen with the hope of learning. I **can** (and often do) learn from people with whom I have fundamental disagreements, something you’ve expressed wonder at in this thread. Philosophical concepts rarely have the same sort of evidentiary basis that physical science does, but most atheists and rationalists grant that philosophy provides useful tools for understanding the world and human experience. Art (including literature, music, etc.) has even less scientific basis, but nevertheless provides insight and ideas that enrich our lives. I’ve been trying to argue for a view of Christianity (and religion in general) that is more akin to philosophy or even art, than science. You seem to be arguing either that Christianity **cannot** be seen that way, despite the fact that many of the people the church as an institution has recognized as its greatest teachers and leaders viewed Christianity in just that way and that a significant and sizeable minority of churchgoers continue to see it that way, _or_ that only ideas with scientific merit are worth discussing or learning from. I’m not sure which is the point you want to make, but I disagree with both. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/96 "2004-12-07T16:40:56Z")
PS–I hate to do so, but I really must retire from this thread, at least for a few days. I’ve got things in real life that need to get taken care of, and I just won’t have the time to keep posting like I have. If the conversation is still going come weekend, I may have more to say then. Peace to you all. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/97 "2004-12-07T17:45:31Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > When I meet a Freudian, I do more than simply point out the theoretical and methodological flaws in her belief system… Wha? I didn’t know that were any Freudian therapists left. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/98 "2004-12-09T05:29:18Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > If you’re interested in dismissing or “disproving” Christian belief, the ideas of 90% of the Christians you’ve encountered make a fine target. > > If you’re an amture sociologist, interested in learning about which belief systems are popular, the ideas of 90% of the Christians you’ve encountered make a fine research topic. I think you’ve misunderstood my “purpose”. I have had interesting conversations with lots of smart people of various belief systems. As someone else has pointed out, though, there’s no way of saying one is more “right” than another. And unless you believe in God, it makes no difference how one person’s conception of God is different or special. I continually teeter on the agnostic/atheistic edge. Deep down, I like to think there is some sort of God-like substance out there, but that doesn’t mean there is, or that I know anything about it. At the same time, I am continually offended by people who _know_ about God and what He wants and are damned and determined not to keep it to themselves, and that riles my atheistic leanings. From the way you have described your beliefs, I don’t have anything against them and no need to debate them. I’m also not very interested in them–nothing personal, I’ve just had about all the metaphysical theorizing I need for the next decade or so. However, I am interested in that 90% you are describing. Specifically, I am interested in exposing to them how ridiculous their beliefs are. When I was younger, I had a few deep discussion with religious friends, and once the discussions sank in, they never really had their religion again. I felt guilty about this and stopped discussing it for a long time, because I was concerned that what I had done might not have helped them. My feelings have changed now. I am now convinced that the 90% are actually doing harm to the rest of us, and so I no longer feel any guilt if I interfere with their magical beliefs. If they could enjoy their faith without feeling the need to inflict it on the rest of us, then I would have no problem with them, but that isn’t acceptable for them. An example of what I’m talking about is this religious belief that there is something bad or dirty about the human body or sexual feelings, which leads to a national uproar over the exposure of Janet Jackson’s boob. I believe that this sexual repression is bad for everyone. So, as long as religious types are going to try to impose their ideas about “good” on everyone else, I am going to by interested in undermining their beliefs. It is personal to me because, based on my upbringing, I believe that religious indoctrination is particularly harmful to children. I was luck to have a logical, analytical mind, and it made me able to reason my way out of the fear and distress that religious training instilled in me. It took me years to arrive at some sort of inner peace with it. I still believe that the 90% has the right to believe what they want to, but I feel a little vindicated when I exercise my right to explain various reasons why I disagree. For every time I break the cycle of magical thinking, that’s one less person who’ll vote based on what they heard at church. > [@](#): > > …or if you’re interested in debating Christianity on a level playing field… No, not really. Just trying to dis-illusion some busybodies. > [@](#): > > Look, I think Freudianism as a science is a bunch of bullshit, but that doesn’t mean Freud and his followers haven’t had deep and profound insights about human nature and experience or that a Freudian couldn’t offer me deep insight into my own life. Which shows that you have a taste for mysticism; not everyone does. A key point here, though, is that Freud actually thought he was doing science. While you may find value in his theories, they still _are_ bullshit from a scientific standpoint. The 90% of believers you mentioned claim they know more about the universe than anyone else–more than scientists ever hope to know. And they’re determined to bend society into the shape required by their faith. And whether you’re punishing Janet Jackson for showing a boob, or punishing other women for not covering their faces, I have a problem with it. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187/99 "2004-12-09T05:30:31Z")
> [@Alan Smithee](#): > > PS–I hate to do so, but I really must retire from this thread, at least for a few days. This, I understand completely. -VM [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-hell/278187.md?page=4)