# What happened to JonBenet Ramsey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577 "2010-01-11T23:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/361 "2010-01-14T23:23:19Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > even a lack of foreign DNA? Heh heh. Anyone who can see past you on this one isn’t trying. That you can’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’m done here. A lack of foreign DNA is inconsistent with an intruder theory. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/362 "2010-01-14T23:24:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Btw, DtC, do you also have some sort of proof that the ransom note was written before she died? Nope. So? Do you have some proof it wasn’t? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/363 "2010-01-14T23:26:35Z")
For those believing the Ramsey’s “did it”, I’ll ask: Assuming that is, indeed, the case that her vaginal area had been wiped clean, why would the parents do such a thing? Why would they even think to do so? Why would they leave the body in the house? Would they not have bolstered a phony kidnapping story by dumping it some God forsaken place? In fact, why would they even alert the police in the first place while the body was still there? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/364 "2010-01-14T23:27:09Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Because I read the damn thing. It is a 38 page defense of the Ramseys. The ransom note, the single best piece of physical evidence in the case, gets one sentence of coverage. It’s a description of objective facts. The most significant evidence, by a mile, is the DNA. The note is practically worthless since it excludes virtually nobody. What makes forensic evdience (or any other scientific evidence) sgnificant is what it can exclude, not what it can include. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/365 "2010-01-14T23:27:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A lack of foreign DNA is inconsistent with an intruder theory. Why do I bother? It does not exclude that theory. Look you’re wrong about what circumstantial evidence is (as others have acknowledged) and you’re wrong about what DNA has proven (also as others have acknowledged). Wrong, wrong, wrong. The opposite of correct. Wrong. You might think you’re being clever, but you’re not. You are exposing your ignorance. You are in way over your head. You are outside your sphere of knowledge. If this were a game, you would have lost. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/366 "2010-01-14T23:30:12Z")
I know what circumstantial evidence is. I have not tried to argue with you about what circumsantial evidence is, so I don’t know why you keep saying that. The circumstantial evidence which does not exclude the Ramseys also does not exclude an intruder, so it’s probative value is non-existent. Evidence has to exclude something to be useful. Evidence which does not exclude Jay Leno is not evidence against Jay Leno. You are the one who appears to have very little grasp of what evidence can and can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/367 "2010-01-14T23:35:27Z")
> [@UTejas](#): > > Why, exactly, is a three-page rambling screed the best piece of evidence? I am asking this in earnest. It seems to me as if the single best piece of physical evidence is two DNA samples in different locations from the same unknown caucasian male. To go along with, you know, duct tape and cord from not inside the house. The the other half of the paintbrush removed from the house. The signs of forced entry along the window. The bootprints on the floor from boots not belonging to anyone in the family. The hair. The signs of stun gun use on the body. How is all of that less important than a note written by a crazy person? Because it was written by the killer. The DNA samples may or may mot be from the killer. Someday they may get identified and we’ll find out it was from a two year old boy who lived next door. There aren’t signs of forced entry around the window - there were undisturbed spider webs attached to the window. Nobody went through it without leaving some fiber from their clothes and managing to avoid disturbing spider webs. This is in the police reports. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/368 "2010-01-14T23:41:22Z")
How did the pineapple get in her, if she was stun-gunned and evidently not cooperating? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/369 "2010-01-14T23:46:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I know what circumstantial evidence is. I have not tried to argue with you about what circumsantial evidence is, so I don’t know why you keep saying that. > > The circumstantial evidence which does not exclude the Ramseys also does not exclude an intruder, so it’s probative value is non-existent. Evidence has to exckude something to be useful. This evidence reasonably excludes anyone without access to the stationary and information about John’s bonus. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You are the one who appears to have very little grasp of what evidence can and can’t say. Funny. I’ll defer to your wealth of tiral experience. Tell me how in a courtroom I would not be able to introduce this evidence and argue that it implicates the Ramseys. I don’t want to hear your counter argument regaridng what wieght the evidence should be afforded. I want to hear how I would be prohibitted from offering this as circumstanital evidence of their involvement in the crime - think of this apart form every other piece of evidence in the trial. We are not talking about this in conjunction with anythig else. Only, can I argue that this evidence, this circumstantial evidnce, implicates the Ramseys? If I cannot, tell my why? You’re coming close to getting this by bringing in probative value, but you seem to either not know or have forgotten that the jury is going to weigh evidence ETA: you’ve most certainly changed you tune. From there is no evidence to the evidence has little value (you said “no” but I am allowing for your need to employ hyperbole. It obviously has _some_ probabtive value ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/370 "2010-01-14T23:52:18Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > This evidence reasonably excludes anyone without access to the stationary and information about John’s bonus. It also excludes everyone who didn’t know John Ramsey closely. The ransom note said “Use that good southern common sense of yours”, indicating the killer knew John Ramsey was from Atlanta, and not a Coloradoan. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/371 "2010-01-14T23:55:44Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > There aren’t signs of forced entry around the window You mean the unsecured, broken window? The one with a scuff-mark on the wall right below it? The one with footprints in the room that did not belong to the Ramsey family? The one with a sill which showed signs of disturbance, and broken glass under it? The one very close to where the body was found, along with unidentified handprints, unidentified DNA, and duct tape and cord brought in from outside the house? That window? Yeah, no signs of “forced” entry. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/372 "2010-01-14T23:55:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He never cared about a ransom in the first place, and even if he’d originally wanted one, he wasn;'t going to get one with a dead body, plus lugging a dead toddler around is a pretty suspicious thing to do. That could lead to unpleasant questions from the police. Kids are amazing at sleeping through the damnedest stuff, I have lugged around my 3-7 year old goddaughters while they stayed firmly asleep … all you do is wrap them in a blanket, and shush people telling them that she is asleep … in general my goddaughters didnt start snoring unless they had a cold and plugged sinuses. As long as the person doesnt get too close, you can probably haul a dead toddler around until they start turning green and smelling. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/373 "2010-01-15T00:02:37Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > You mean the unsecured, broken window? > > The one with a scuff-mark on the wall right below it? > > The one with footprints in the room that did not belong to the Ramsey family? > > The one with a sill which showed signs of disturbance, and broken glass under it? > > The one very close to where the body was found, along with unidentified handprints, unidentified DNA, and duct tape and cord brought in from outside the house? > > That window? Yeah, no signs of “forced” entry. Well done. John Ramsey broke the window himself when he was locked out of the house earlier that year. He testified to that. There was no sign of forced entry. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/374 "2010-01-15T00:07:36Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > John Ramsey broke the window himself when he was locked out of the house earlier that year. He testified to that. There was no sign of forced entry. Yes… that was my point. “Forced” entry would not have been necessary because the window was never secured. And there were also other open windows and even an open door. Talking about “forced” entry at this point is a little strange. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/375 "2010-01-15T00:16:20Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > John Ramsey broke the window himself when he was locked out of the house earlier that year. He testified to that. There was no sign of forced entry. Way to miss the point. There was no NEED for forced entry. the window was already open. ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/376 "2010-01-15T00:21:37Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Because it was written by the killer. The DNA samples may or may mot be from the killer. Someday they may get identified and we’ll find out it was from a two year old boy who lived next door. There aren’t signs of forced entry around the window - there were undisturbed spider webs attached to the window. Nobody went through it without leaving some fiber from their clothes and managing to avoid disturbing spider webs. This is in the police reports. Fine. There is conflicting information about this window and whether signs of disturbance are present. [Cite](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html) The linked cite is HIGHLY informative and contains plenty of pictures and details and, yes, balanced responses to every theory. Interestingly enough this is noted: > [@](#): > > Language in the ransom note reflects that in several popular movies. The movie Ransom was playing in Boulder during December 1996, the month of JonBenet’s death. It is the story of a child taken hostage for money. In addition, Smit said, there are references in the ransom note that echo lines in similar movies, such as Dirty Harry, Speed, Nick of Time and Ruthless People. The Ramseys didn’t have such movies in their home, and hadn’t seen those movies, Smit said. As referenced earlier. Nobody’s saying this was random. As you note, someone knew he was from Atlanta and clearly had either seen a pay stub of his or had knowledge of his bonus. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/377 "2010-01-15T01:58:37Z")
Man, oh, man. The more this goes on, the more I’m convinced it was an intruder, either known or unknown to the Ramsey’s, who wanted to get at the Ramsey’s for something. A psychopath who thinks putting kids in a beauty pageant deems the death of their daughter, someone who was jealous of John Ramsey, Patty, or the whole family, maybe just someone who LOVES to rape and murder children… … or maybe she slipped on the pineapple, hit her head and a Boulder Winter snake choked her making the garrote an innocent bystander! Oh, to be trapped in an evidence bag for so long! We’re with you, garrote! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/378 "2010-01-15T10:13:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Language in the ransom note reflects that in several popular movies. The movie Ransom was playing in Boulder during December 1996, the month of JonBenet’s death. It is the story of a child taken hostage for money. In addition, Smit said, there are references in the ransom note that echo lines in similar movies, such as Dirty Harry, Speed, Nick of Time and Ruthless People. _The Ramseys didn’t have such movies in their home, and hadn’t seen those movies, Smit said._ Well, that seals it for me. Neither of the parents could possibly be involved with the crime, if that is the case. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/379 "2010-01-15T14:45:16Z")
You seem to have a mistaken perception of where the burden of proof lies. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/380 "2010-01-15T15:24:03Z")
You seem to have a mistaken perception of when evidence proves one thing and disproves another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=20)