# What happened to JonBenet Ramsey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577 "2010-01-11T23:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/81 "2010-01-13T05:18:52Z")
> [@rock party](#): > > The house was searched, and shortly after, it was Mr. Ramsey who remembered > the hidden room. He went downstairs on his own and found his daughter and began > performing CPR on her, ruining the DNA. [QUOTE=rock party] Did John jump up and look in the freezer? Did he jump up and look in a cabinet under the sink? No, because he believed his daughter was kidnapped. But suddenly he DID jump up and go downstairs (on his own, I understand) and find his daughters body…and then mess with the evidence. [/QUOTE] Not how it happened according to [Crime Library](http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html). > [@](#): > > […]a detective asked Fleet White, a friend of the Ramseys, to take John and search the house for “anything unusual.” They started in the basement. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey) > [@](#): > > After first searching the bathroom and “train room”, the two went to a “wine cellar” room where Ramsey found his daughter’s body covered in a white blanket. John Ramsay didn’t suddenly jump up and run right to the body on a hunch. A detective asked Ramsay’s friend, Fleet White, to accompany him on a search of the house. Ramsay wasn’t alone when the body was found, Fleet White was with him. Ramsay and White started their search in the basement, which seems logical (you’d expect them to either start at the bottom and work their way up or vice versa). Ramsay didn’t go straight to the room containing the body, the pair searched two other rooms first. Ramsay did “mess with the evidence” by trying CPR on his daughter’s body, but that wouldn’t have introduced the DNA that was found under her fingernails and in her underwear. > [@rock party](#): > > They “lawyered up” and Patsy refused to be interviewed for more than a year. I got this quote from the Crime Library article that I linked to above: > [@](#): > > According to Brian Morgan, their attorney, [snip] > > “The Ramseys were interviewed on the 26th, the Ramseys were interviewed on the 27th. On the 27th they give samples of physical evidence, blood, hair and fingerprints. When they returned from Atlanta, the Ramseys gave five handwriting samples, voluntarily. To say that the Ramseys had not cooperated in this investigation is a gross mischaracterization.” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/82 "2010-01-13T05:20:50Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > How about a husband or wife? Mom or dad? An X-lover? That’s not how investigations are determined. Well, yeah, that’s why the cops don’t ask loved ones to help with crime scenes. The cops are the ones who fucked up by asking John and Fleet White to help look. John Ramsey behaved like a normal father wanting to protect his child–he shouldn’t have been allowed to find her to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/83 "2010-01-13T05:21:48Z")
> [@Incref](#): > > I find it odd that if it was ‘a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction’ (or anyone intent on carrying out a kidnapping for that matter) why they would leave the body in the house? Most kidnappings end in death anyway, why not just take the body with you and still go through with trying to get the money? > > Or if you’ve freaked out and killed the girl and have decided to abandon your kidnapping plan, why not go back and grab the ransom note? Surely you’d prefer that something which has your hand writing all over it doesn’t stay in the house with the dead little girl you were threatening to kill. You were comfortable enough to hang out in the house for however long writing it, everyone’s still asleep, why not just take it before you leave? Obviously, the ransom note was a clumsy, bullshit attempt at misderection, whoever wrote it, but I can see where a perp might simply panic and forget it was there and/or simpy want to cut his losses and flee if he accidentally killed the kid before he wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/84 "2010-01-13T05:22:17Z")
I imagine I’d be in heavy discussion with investigators on how to proceed…and if I did think of a special place that she could be that the cops hadn’t looked (because all 12 of them came and told you they hadn’t looked in that place)…I’d mention it and go down there with officers in tow. No, the cops didn’t have to report to JR where they had and hadn’t looked, he KNEW they hadn’t looked there. Him finding the body’s hiding place and being the first person to reach the body doesn’t seem random. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/85 "2010-01-13T05:23:55Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > This is false. The case has been turned back over to the police, and I can guarantee you that the family is under suspicion. One whackjob DA who has been replaced and is a disgraced figure in Boulder declared the family innocent. Almost nobody else believed that. > > The family has not been excluded from suspicion because of DNA evidence. That is just a false statement. No. The family has been officially cleared. Anything else is in your own imagination. The DNA evdience cannot just be handwaved away because you are personally desperate to believe (without a shred of evidence) that the parents are the perps. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/86 "2010-01-13T05:25:15Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > I imagine I’d be in heavy discussion with investigators on how to proceed…and if I did think of a special place that she could be that the cops hadn’t looked (because all 12 of them came and told you they hadn’t looked in that place)..I’d mention it and go down there with officers in tow. This is not remotely how any normal parent would behave. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/87 "2010-01-13T05:25:32Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > This is false. The case has been turned back over to the police, and I can guarantee you that the family is under suspicion. One whackjob DA who has been replaced and is a disgraced figure in Boulder declared the family innocent. Almost nobody else believed that. > > The family has not been excluded from suspicion because of DNA evidence. That is just a false statement. How DARE you contradict the all-knowing Diogenes the Cynic!!! When He has spoken, the debate is finished. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/88 "2010-01-13T05:28:30Z")
I provided cites. **Lamar** provided personal “guarantees.” If you want to assert that the Ramseys are still under supsicion, well then…CITE? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/89 "2010-01-13T05:30:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. The family has been officially cleared. Anything else is in your own imagination. The DNA evdience cannot just be handwaved away because you are personally desperate to believe (without a shred of evidence) that the parents are the perps. No, they haven’t. Mary Lacy is out of office - anything she might have said in a letter to the family doesn’t mean squat. It holds the same weight as OJ Simpson saying he is going to spend the rest of his life looking for the real killers. I live in Boulder and have friends in the police force and in the DA’s office. It is not in my imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/90 "2010-01-13T05:33:52Z")
But how would any of us know how we’d respond? It’s an abnormal situation. I don’t think John Ramsey did anything all that odd, especially since he was asked by the police to help search. Is it so hard to believe he wouldn’t be rationale enough to sit down and have a logical discussion with cops but might think randomly, “Oh, maybe she’s in that little room down in the basement.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/91 "2010-01-13T05:34:05Z")
That’s not a cite. As the officiual record stands, the Rmaseys are cleared. The DNA is irrefutable, and I personally don’t give shit what the moron cops in Boulder think. They’re the ones who fucked this case up, and then wasted years going after the wrong people in the first place. The DNA is what is is, man, no matter what the cops want to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/92 "2010-01-13T05:36:54Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But how would any of us know how we’d respond? It’s an abnormal situation. I don’t think John Ramsey did anything all that odd, especially since he was asked by the police to help search. Is it so hard to believe he wouldn’t be rationale enough to sit down and have a logical discussion with cops but might think randomly, “Oh, maybe she’s in that little room down in the basement.” According to **Cazzle’s** cite, it’s not even true that he just suddenly thought of a space and “jumped up.” He was searching the basement with a friend upon advice of the police, and they found her in the third room they looked in. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/93 "2010-01-13T05:39:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Obviously, the ransom note was a clumsy, bullshit attempt at misderection, whoever wrote it, but I can see where a perp might simply panic and forget it was there and/or simpy want to cut his losses and flee if he accidentally killed the kid before he wanted to. Yeah but that doesn’t explain why they didn’t take the body, even if it was misdirection. You’ve spent the time writing the note, if you intended to kill her either way you’re still better off buying some time with the police using their resources to investigate a kidnapping than a murder. Or at least in your own head you were better off, otherwise you wouldn’t have written a note, you just would have abducted her. I’m just having problems with the intruder being such a dunce, yet having intimate knowledge of the finances (I think $118,000 is too much of a coincidence) and movements of the family. Surely if it was a family friend (and it would have to be a close one) the police would have investigated him and tested his DNA. If it wasn’t then it would have to be someone with sufficient intelligence to monitor the family and discover financial information about them, why would someone who had so much previous restraint go and bugger the whole thing up? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/94 "2010-01-13T05:45:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The DNA is irrefutable… No, not really. The DNA only indicates one additional person she was in contact with in the hours before her death besides her immediate family. Dude, you are letting your conviction that the Ramsey are clean cover all other possibilities with flecks of your spittle. You are not only not open to other possibilities, you are rabid in support of your claim. Take a step back. You may still come to the same conclusion, but you will sound a little less, if I may, crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/95 "2010-01-13T05:52:09Z")
They are innocent until proven guilty, and they have been cleared as suspects by the Boulder DA’s office (a position which has not been reversed by said office, despite Lamar’s personal guarantees). Unless some evidence can be shown that the source of the DNA on the body was not the only perp, then I can see no reason to keep insisting that the parents (who are VICTIMS of this crime) must prove their own innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/96 "2010-01-13T05:56:05Z")
> [@Incref](#): > > Yeah but that doesn’t explain why they didn’t take the body, even if it was misdirection. You’ve spent the time writing the note, if you intended to kill her either way you’re still better off buying some time with the police using their resources to investigate a kidnapping than a murder. Or at least in your own head you were better off, otherwise you wouldn’t have written a note, you just would have abducted her. > > I’m just having problems with the intruder being such a dunce, yet having intimate knowledge of the finances (I think $118,000 is too much of a coincidence) and movements of the family. Surely if it was a family friend (and it would have to be a close one) the police would have investigated him and tested his DNA. > > If it wasn’t then it would have to be someone with sufficient intelligence to monitor the family and discover financial information about them, why would someone who had so much previous restraint go and bugger the whole thing up? Which part do you think is buggered up? I think the evidence is consistent with a psychopath intruder (serial killer type sicko) who intended to kill her and just wrote that note as a ruse. If it was intended as a real ransom note, why make it so long and meandering? It reads like something that some demented person wrote for kicks. And it accomplished the goal of creating hours of chaos and contamination of the crime scene. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/97 "2010-01-13T06:22:26Z")
I’m still struck at how the parents adopted a defensive posture of (seemingly) the most minimal possible cooperation with the police very soon after the investigation initiated. The doors shut \*so \*fast on working with the police it was astounding. Even given “rich” people’s tendency to lawyer up most wealthy families would (I think) cooperate with e police far more than the Ramsey’s did if they had a child that was murdered. That, and the weirdness of the ransom note make it look like it was something the Ramsey’s cobbled together as a clumsy CYA. In weighing the possibility that some sociopath with intimate knowledge of the Ramsey family and their finances did swoop in and do all this vs the possibility that this was some inter-family argument or altercation gone horribly wrong, I think my money is still (overall) on the family altercation and more specifically on her brother as the murderer. Even small kids can be ferociously strong when angry. If either parent had done it I don’t think they would have covered for each other. The only way it all makes sense re the Ramsey’s overall behavior is if was her brother. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/98 "2010-01-13T06:26:28Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > Which part do you think is buggered up? I think the evidence is consistent with a psychopath intruder (serial killer type sicko) who intended to kill her and just wrote that note as a ruse. If it was intended as a real ransom note, why make it so long and meandering? It reads like something that some demented person wrote for kicks. And it accomplished the goal of creating hours of chaos and contamination of the crime scene. I’m not saying I think it’s a real ransom note, I think from the language and tone of the whole thing it’s pretty obviously not. I’m just saying I think you’d have to be in possession of a crystal ball to think leaving a sample of your hand writing was going to aid your evasion of police, rather hamper it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/99 "2010-01-13T06:27:26Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In weighing the possibility that some sociopath with intimate knowledge of the Ramsey family and their finances did swoop in and do all this vs the possibility that this was some inter-family argument or altercation gone horribly wrong, I think my money is still (overall) on the family altercation and more specifically on her brother as the murderer. Even small kids can be ferociously strong when angry. If either parent had done it I don’t think they would have covered for each other. The only way it all makes sense re the Ramsey’s overall behavior is if was her brother. But what about the DNA under her fingernails that matched the DNA on her underwear? It didn’t match Burke Ramsey or any of the Ramseys for that matter. Also, there was evidence of sexual molestation. Though some believe the killer did that after death to make it look like it was sex related crime–I guess one of the Ramseys under that theory could have done that to draw attention away from it being one of them. Do you really think they would, though? ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/100 "2010-01-13T06:36:15Z")
> [@Incref](#): > > I’m not saying I think it’s a real ransom note, I think from the language and tone of the whole thing it’s pretty obviously not. > > I’m just saying I think you’d have to be in possession of a crystal ball to think leaving a sample of your hand writing was going to aid your evasion of police, rather hamper it. Now I’m confused. If you think it wasn’t a real ransom note, why would it be left there, other than to confuse the investigation? For fun? (possible) Something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=6)