# What happened to JonBenet Ramsey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577 "2010-01-11T23:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/101 "2010-01-13T06:45:14Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But what about the DNA under her fingernails that matched the DNA on her underwear? It didn’t match Burke Ramsey or any of the Ramseys for that matter. > > Also, there was evidence of sexual molestation. Though some believe the killer did that after death to make it look like it was sex related crime–I guess one of the Ramseys under that theory could have done that to draw attention away from it being one of them. Do you really think they would, though? Possible DNA contamination and everything else aside. The one thing that really can’t be explained away here (IMO) is that utterly oddball ransom note. In looking at the contents it really does look like a massive, on the fly, creative writing exercise of what someone’s notion of a ransom note \*should \*look like, and it was very likely it was written by Patsy Ramsey. Did she flip out and kill her own child? Did her almost 10 year brother get into a tussle with her and lose it? Who knows, but it really looks (to me) far more like an inside job than any competing hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/102 "2010-01-13T06:52:28Z")
What is your basis for saying that it was “very likely” written by Patsy Ramsey, and how did the exact same DNA “contamination,” none of which matched anyone in the house or any LE personel who handled the evidence, get under the victim’s fingernails, into her panties and onto the longjohns she was wearing? That just can’t be waved away. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/103 "2010-01-13T07:04:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They are innocent until proven guilty, and they have been cleared as suspects by the Boulder DA’s office (a position which has not been reversed by said office, despite Lamar’s personal guarantees). > > Unless some evidence can be shown that the source of the DNA on the body was not the only perp, then I can see no reason to keep insisting that the parents (who are VICTIMS of this crime) must prove their own innocence. They were declared cleared by a former (and now disgraced) DA’s office. Do you think this means some sort of legal immunity forever? You are not a stupid man, don’t try to cling to that argument. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/104 "2010-01-13T07:13:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is your basis for saying that it was “very likely” written by Patsy Ramsey, and how did the exact same DNA “contamination,” none of which matched anyone in the house or any LE personnel who handled the evidence, get under the victim’s fingernails, into her panties and onto the longjohns she was wearing? > > That just can’t be waved away. In this case there are many elements that can’t be waved away, but in sorting through the mostly likely explanations the notion that a crazy person would sneak into he house, take the kid and then, while on premises, take the time to write several drafts of an extemporaneous ransom note that shows a considerable level of knowledge about Ramsey’s personal bonus that year … I don’t know the final answer, but the probability of that happening vs it being a horrible accident of some kind with a scrambling CYA after the fact, I’m coming down on the side it being an accident with CYA after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/105 "2010-01-13T07:14:10Z")
It means they were cleared by the DA’s office, and that office has not reversed itself./ They are not currently suspects. The end. If you want to dispute this, show me a cite that they are currently suspected, or currently under investigation. While you’re at it, why don’t you explain wher the DNA under the fingernails and in the underwear came from. There’s no way around that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/106 "2010-01-13T07:15:17Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In this case there are many elements that can’t be waved away, but in sorting through the mostly likely explanations the notion that a crazy person would sneak into he house, take the kid and then, while on premises, take the time to write several drafts of an extemporaneous ransom note that shows a considerable level of knowledge about Ramsey’s personal bonus that year … I don’t know the final answer, but the probability of that happening vs it being a horrible accident of some kind with a scrambling CYA after the fact, I’m coming down on the side it being an accident with CYA after the fact. That doesn’t explain the DNA. There’s no way around the DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/107 "2010-01-13T07:19:53Z")
As far as evidence that may implicate the Ramseys, there are the reported fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, JonBenet is believed to have eaten the pineapple with someone she knew, and one person here mentioned a fiber “matching” Patsy’s clothing on the gavrotte. The supposed ransom note was written inside the house and included the specific sum, which the Ramseys would obviously know. Is there anything else that is public knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/108 "2010-01-13T07:26:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That doesn’t explain the DNA. There’s no way around the DNA. Actually, the DNA only implicates one possible suspect. There are MILES around the DNA from SEVERAL directions. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/109 "2010-01-13T07:27:08Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In this case there are many elements that can’t be waved away, but in sorting through the mostly likely explanations the notion that a crazy person would sneak into he house, take the kid and then, while on premises, take the time to write several drafts of an extemporaneous ransom note that shows a considerable level of knowledge about Ramsey’s personal bonus that year … I don’t know the final answer, but the probability of that happening vs it being a horrible accident of some kind with a scrambling CYA after the fact, I’m coming down on the side it being an accident with CYA after the fact. I could accept the note as CYA, but the way her body was strangled and left seems to go beyond CYA in my opinion. Then there’s the DNA, too. ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/110 "2010-01-13T07:28:36Z")
Everyone should read the [Crime Library summary](http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html) of the case. Yes, it’s long. Please read it. This thread is rife with accusations of guilt due to “glad-handing” as well as events that didn’t happen, like John Ramsey suddenly leaping up and running to the secret room. So far **Dio** is the only one with cites. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/111 "2010-01-13T07:30:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That doesn’t explain the DNA. There’s no way around the DNA. DNA is currently detectable in such amazingly minute and infinitesimal quantities I’m not all that convinced that the presence of DNA, in and of itself, says much about who the perp is likely to be vs who might have shed some skins cells on her clothes in washing, drying, folding, manufacturing, or packaging or just being on a toilet seat that she might have sat down on after the DNA donor left. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/112 "2010-01-13T07:38:57Z")
It was under her fingernails and in her underwear. The touch DNA on her longjohns was inside the waistband where someone had yanked them down. You guys aren’t much on presumptiion of innocence, are you? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/113 "2010-01-13T07:48:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was under her fingernails and in her underwear. The touch DNA on her longjohns was inside the waistband where someone had yanked them down. > > You guys aren’t much on presumption of innocence, are you? Technically sure, but it’s difficult bordering on impossible to make sense of the events that transpired as a real kidnapping or ransom scheme in that they do not resemble any kidnapping or ransom scheme which has ever been concocted, even by brain damaged criminals. Nothing hangs together in trying to make sense of this as a criminal plan. It only makes sense (to me) as scrambling desperate CYA after something terrible happened. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/114 "2010-01-13T07:48:38Z")
(Totally dismissing DtC as an unreasoning nutcase on this topic) ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/115 "2010-01-13T08:31:05Z")
[Quote=dropzone] I remember film of John happily glad-handing people at his daughter’s funeral. Guilty. As. Hell.y [/QUOTE] > [@dropzone](#): > > (Totally dismissing DtC as an unreasoning nutcase on this topic) You can tell whether someone is guilty of murder by looking at video footage and when someone disagrees with you, they’re obviously an “unreasoned nutcase.” Where did you get this extraordinarily insightful understanding of human behavior? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/116 "2010-01-13T09:02:02Z")
John Ramsay was filmed happily welcoming others to the funeral of his daughter. One point. DtC has all along demonstrated a support for any point made by the Ramsays in a completely irrational and absolutist manner that he would, in any other case, dismiss: Point 2. Another point: DtC’s support is so un-characteristically rabid that an old friend can only wonder if he’s gone insane. Honest to God, Dio, you’ve gone that far off the tracks supporting a thesis that only belongs on one track. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/117 "2010-01-13T09:16:45Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > Now I’m confused. If you think it wasn’t a real ransom note, why would it be left there, other than to confuse the investigation? For fun? (possible) Something else? I’m saying I find the likelihood of someone making a premeditated plan that involved writing this note implausible. The ransom note smacks to me of ‘Oh shit, what do we do now?!’ not ‘Hmm, this will throw them off before I proceed to abduct/murder this girl.’ ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/118 "2010-01-13T10:40:38Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > As far as evidence that may implicate the Ramseys, there are the reported fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, JonBenet is believed to have eaten the pineapple with someone she knew, and one person here mentioned a fiber “matching” Patsy’s clothing on the gavrotte. The supposed ransom note was written inside the house and included the specific sum, which the Ramseys would obviously know. Is there anything else that is public knowledge? Hmmmm. Person known to Jon-Benet breaks in with the intent to perhaps just burgerlarize, but JB wakes up and comes downstairs for a drink. He gives her pineapple and they chat while he rummages in the desk for any money or something he can use, he finds something about the bonus, giving him the amount. Guy gets the bright idea to kidnap the sprog, so he sits down and writes the note, JB chatting with him and eating pineapple, or playing with something while ‘keeping him company while I write daddy a note’ and then he places it on the stairs where it will be found [in case nobody looks on the kitchen desk for a while, a note on the stairs is very visible] and she resists, and struggles, and accidently gets killed, he panics and hides her in the basement room and kips out and away. He uses materials [cord and whatnot] from the kitchen junk drawer to tie her which turns into a garrotte. There, she has eaten pineapple a significant time before death, there is time to have several drafts and a final copy of the note, no fingerprints, and the note paper, pen and garrotte cord with fibres from a sweater owned by the mother. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/119 "2010-01-13T10:50:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > John Ramsay was filmed happily welcoming others to the funeral of his daughter. One point. On the one hand, there is DNA evidence clearing the family. On the other, there is **dropzone** ’s insistence that he used his psychic powers across time and space to determine that Ramsay was happy his daughter was dead, based on not putting on a sufficient show of outward grief at the funeral. Human reactions can be weird. Depressed people often seem to get better right before they commit suicide. Sometimes people cry, sometimes they get numb, sometimes they don’t want to subject everyone to their grief, sometimes they want to be consoled. Sometimes they deride factual arguments while spouting ridiculous nonsense about their psychic powers. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577/120 "2010-01-13T11:28:33Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Hmmmm. Person known to Jon-Benet breaks in with the intent to perhaps just burgerlarize, but JB wakes up and comes downstairs for a drink. He gives her pineapple and they chat while he rummages in the desk for any money or something he can use, he finds something about the bonus, giving him the amount. Guy gets the bright idea to kidnap the sprog, so he sits down and writes the note, JB chatting with him and eating pineapple, or playing with something while ‘keeping him company while I write daddy a note’ and then he places it on the stairs where it will be found [in case nobody looks on the kitchen desk for a while, a note on the stairs is very visible] and she resists, and struggles, and accidently gets killed, he panics and hides her in the basement room and kips out and away. He uses materials [cord and whatnot] from the kitchen junk drawer to tie her which turns into a garrotte. > > There, she has eaten pineapple a significant time before death, there is time to have several drafts and a final copy of the note, no fingerprints, and the note paper, pen and garrotte cord with fibres from a sweater owned by the mother. Really? Someone breaks in when there is a house full of people and decides to sit at the kitchen table and write a few drafts of a ransom note? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-jonbenet-ramsey/524577.md?page=7)