# What happened to the American melting pot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816 "2016-12-04T14:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/21 "2016-12-05T01:44:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There never was a “melting pot”, at least in the way you think it existed. During the 19th century our country was dotted with ethnic communities where languages other than English were spoken by default, school, religious services, newspapers, and on and on used the old language. My Grandfather despite having parents born in America grew up speaking German at home as his first language. Yeah…I spend a lot of time here in Rochester at the historic Mt Hope Cemetery (where Frederick Douglass and Susan B Anthony are buried) and there are lots and lots of gravestones from the 19th and early 20th century that are entirely in German. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/22 "2016-12-05T02:14:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > My parents were melting-pot-ideology idealists so I’d like to speak to this. > > I was raised in the South (capital “S”; Valdosta GA) in the 1960s. My folks were not unusual in their outspoken belief in racial equality and the moral wrongness of racism. Yes, we had neighbors who thought it was cool and southern-assertive to go around dropping racial epithets and I had teachers who would take our class to a skating rink that didn’t allow blacks (on the grounds that it didn’t matter this year because we didn’t have any black kids in our class, last year the class couldn’t go because there was, and it’s embarrassing and unfortunate that the skating-rink owner is like that but hey it’s not an issue this year). > > Technology and rationality and American values would triumph and the world was going to be a better place. > > Everyone, regardless of their background, was going to be allowed equal access to the good life, and it would start with them all embracing the white upper middle class values which are of course the right ones. We would not keep those other-flavored folks out! Episcopalean homogeneity for everyone! > > To answer your question(s), explicit and implicit alike, the problem was the honest earnest unquestioned assumption that all of the marginalized people would want to be like “us”. In general triumphalism-whether of the Victorian Protestant, Marxist, or technocratic bourgeois social liberal variety-is a dangerous thing. However, it seems clear to me that adoption of what are generally considered midcentury, middle-class American values generally lead to better lifestyle and policy outcomes and inasmuch as the State has an interest in producing optimal solutions, it should promote such values along with other values such as antiracism, sexual equality, and so on for the sake of the Nation. It’s true some people may not want it, but that’s why we have borders in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/23 "2016-12-05T02:22:44Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The American melting pot still exists. Many prefer that aliens enter the U.S.A. in an orderly, and legal, manner. We are a nation of laws. Although the laws suck, they have to be followed. Our immigration policies suck and we should welcome anyone from anywhere; but if you come here illegally under our current laws, you’re a law breaker. I’m willing to forgive victims, e.g., children of illegals. We can’t have rule of law if we ignore the law, but we really need to open the borders to everyone. Quite a conundrum. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/24 "2016-12-05T06:53:34Z")
Here’s a [favorite cartoon](http://historyproject.ucdavis.edu/marchandslides.bak/5023.jpg) showing prosperous American gentlemen trying to force a ragged immigrant to get back on that boat. Behind each American is the shadow of his father/grandfather/younger self as a ragged immigrant. From t[his collection](http://historyproject.ucdavis.edu/lessons/view_lesson.php?id=4) of cartoons. There are much uglier collections out there, displaying Nativist & Know Nothing ideas. Immigrants adapt; their children adapt even more. But not every American will be a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Even if their ancestors came over a _long_ time ago. ETA: I didn’t care for that silly “Drumpf” meme. Yes, some of The Donald’s ancestors changed their names. Should he be ashamed of that? No, thinking on that fact ought to improve his understanding of others. Of course, “thinking” and “understanding” aren’t in his skill set. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/25 "2016-12-05T19:05:02Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > This always seemed to me one of the noblest ideas of the American dream. Sure there was a hell of a long way to go and many obstacles to surmount but that was always the goal: one nation, one people. > > You don’t hear much about it now. The trend seems to be towards a fissiparous nation with Europeans, Latinos, African-Americans et al identifying themselves by their racial characteristics or ancestral national identities rather than as primarily and solely Americans. > > So what do you think? Has the melting pot failed and if so should it be revivified? If at first you don’t succeed … The melting pot worked pretty well when we were trying to assimilate the Irish and the Italians and the Germans and the Jews. It worked less well when we tried the same thing with the Chinese, the Mexicans and former slaves. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/26 "2016-12-05T19:22:53Z")
Melting is easy when you are allowed to melt. If you have a little melanin in your skin, you are not treated as if you are “just” American. You are treated as other. People assume you dont speak English. People assume you were not born here. People assume your culture is strikingly different from their culture. Even when everything about you is solidly American. Just because you aren’t white. I suspect that the historical melting point thing is overstated. Few immigrants have come over here and have completely shed their previous identities. Most families that I know have some vestige of ‘old country’ culture reflected in their traditions and habits. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/27 "2016-12-05T19:35:47Z")
I’ve always heard it as a melting pot and a salad bowl, and it does seem to still fit. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/28 "2016-12-05T20:48:50Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Politics and money happened to it. Some people found that there was money to be made by embracing the “salad bowl” concept instead of the melting pot. Others got on board and now we have schools forced to teach kids in forty-lebben different languages instead of English, thereby insuring that they will not speak, read or write English well and condemning them to a second-rate life and dependency on big government. Politics and money happened to it._[citation needed]_ Some people\*[who?]\* found that there was money to be made by embracing the “salad bowl” concept instead of the melting pot._[according to whom?]_ Others\*[who?]\* got on board and now we have schools forced\*[dubious - discuss]\* to teach kids in forty-lebben\*[quantify]\* different languages instead of English\*[citation needed]_, thereby insuring that they will not speak, read or write English well_[original research?]\* and condemning them to a second-rate life and dependency on big government._[neutrality is disputed]_ ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/29 "2016-12-05T21:01:20Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Politics and money happened to it. Some people found that there was money to be made by embracing the “salad bowl” concept instead of the melting pot. Others got on board and now we have schools forced to teach kids in forty-lebben different languages instead of English, thereby insuring that they will not speak, read or write English well and condemning them to a second-rate life and dependency on big government. Research [contradicts your claim](http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/march/teaching-english-language-032514.html) that bilingually-educated ESL students perform worse than English-only educated students. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/30 "2016-12-05T22:11:58Z")
The problem with the melting pot is that the people on the bottom get burned, and the scum floats to the top. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/31 "2016-12-05T22:16:18Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > The problem with the melting pot is that the people on the bottom get burned, and the scum floats to the top. Cute. Could you give some examples of “people on the bottom” and “the scum that floats to the top”, just to make sure we’re on the same page? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/32 "2016-12-06T20:12:33Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > This always seemed to me one of the noblest ideas of the American dream. Excuse e while I throw up; this was the strap line while blacks were still being hunted and lynched. Lets include the ‘shining beacon on the hill’, just for shit and giggles. You were sold a pup, folks; the 1950s version of The West Wing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/33 "2016-12-06T20:18:58Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > My parents were melting-pot-ideology idealists so I’d like to speak to this. > > I was raised in the South (capital “S”; Valdosta GA) in the 1960s. My folks were not unusual in their outspoken belief in racial equality and the moral wrongness of racism. Yes, we had neighbors who thought it was cool and southern-assertive to go around dropping racial epithets and I had teachers who would take our class to a skating rink that didn’t allow blacks (on the grounds that it didn’t matter this year because we didn’t have any black kids in our class, last year the class couldn’t go because there was, and it’s embarrassing and unfortunate that the skating-rink owner is like that but hey it’s not an issue this year). > > Technology and rationality and American values would triumph and the world was going to be a better place. > > Everyone, regardless of their background, was going to be allowed equal access to the good life, and it would start with them all embracing the white upper middle class values which are of course the right ones. We would not keep those other-flavored folks out! Episcopalean homogeneity for everyone! > > To answer your question(s), explicit and implicit alike, the problem was the honest earnest unquestioned assumption that all of the marginalized people would want to be like “us”. Underline mine. They were also required to embrace the right skin tone, facial features… and those who could not, well, if you were a proper Christian you pitied them instead of running them out of town. Or maybe you lived in a sundown town, in which case you pitied them while running them out of town. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/34 "2016-12-06T20:48:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The melting pot ideal was racist, because it presumed an ideal of everyone becoming more like us. It was imperialist, since it was about the immigrants changing. Nonsense. The melting pot idea was that everyone changed and became more like everyone else. > [@](#): > > We no longer need this idea that everyone become the same for us to treat them equally. Or, at least, that’s the ideal. Of course this ideal has rarely (probably never, but you never know so I’m hedging) actually prevailed in human history. And when it doesn’t work, you frequently end up with everyone killing everyone else … ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/35 "2016-12-08T22:32:01Z")
Another point: other nations don’t necessarily use the term “melting pot,” but something LIKE a melting pot exists even so. There are loads of Indians living in London, eating fish & chips and rooting for Arsenal. There are loads of Jamaicans in Glasgow, drinking whiskey and speaking with Scottish burrs. There are now many Poles and Nigerians in Dublin, and their kids are growing up with brogues and playing Gaelic football. YES, France has assimilation problems, but there are still plenty of Arab gendarmes in Paris whose families have been in France for decades and who think of themselves as French. The US has had large immigrant populations for longer than most European countries, but we’re NOT unique in our diversity any more. Far from it. And most of the immigrants don’t remain confined to isolated ghettos forever. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/36 "2016-12-09T08:59:41Z")
Just yesterday there was an article in El Mundo about “the next Gasol brothers”, Sadiq and Usman Garuba, two kids who are part of Spain’s current crop of teenage basketball stars. They listed several children who are all Spanish by birth and children of immigrants; one of them was born with a Spanish passport, in South Africa, and has Cuban ancestry; the rest are more what you’d expect, parents born abroad, kid born already here. I didn’t see my first black person outside of a screen until I was 15, and that was abroad; the first Japanese came to my home town about 40 years ago (there was a Japanese-owned factory) and they’ve all left, the first Chinese a decade later and have stayed. My nephews have classmates whose parents came from Guinea, Nigeria or Brasil. Latin Americans are perceived as “practically from here”; they and the Guineans have the advantage of already speaking the language. You just can’t guess where people are from based on looks any more - and that’s a good thing in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/37 "2016-12-09T12:38:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Melting is easy when you are allowed to melt. > > If you have a little melanin in your skin, you are not treated as if you are “just” American. You are treated as other. People assume you dont speak English. People assume you were not born here. People assume your culture is strikingly different from their culture. Even when everything about you is solidly American. Yes, a small but non-ignorable percentage of the population is definitely anti-assimilation…[and it ain’t the liberals](http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/rogue-one-star-wars-boycott-nazis-alt-right-white-supremacists-twitter-a7461146.html). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/38 "2016-12-09T17:15:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Nonsense. The melting pot idea was that everyone changed and became more like everyone else. Sure, you change your language, culture, religion and traditions and in exchange we learn to like spaghetti, and dance to salsa music. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/39 "2016-12-09T17:22:09Z")
Agreed. Only difference is that I think that’s completely reasonable. Anyone who emigrates to another country and thinks he and the population of his new country are going to be on equal footing in terms of assimilating should better just stay where he is. But the guy I was responding to claimed that the melting pot ideal was racist and imperialist, in that it presumed everyone had to change to be “like us”. That’s nonsense. The ideal was that everyone absorbed culture from everyone else and to the extent that the majority pre-existing culture had the more dominant influence it was simply due to them being the majority and pre-existing, and not due to any racism or imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816/40 "2016-12-09T17:54:35Z")
But the people complaining that the melting pot “isn’t there any more” _are_ the ones who don’t want to try new foods. They expect immigrants to integrate completely, forgetting their roots, with no give on their own part. That’s not only unfair but unrealistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-american-melting-pot/773816.md?page=3)