I don’t think this is true. If there are any actual people making such claims, feel free to attack those people. But whether such people exist or not, there are also people who are not averse to the old-time melting pot - including trying new foods, words, etc. etc. - but feel the emphasis on people self-identifying by the subgroup and emphasizing its unique culture is harmful. You shouldn’t avoid confronting this argument by insisting that there are other people making a different argument.
You’ll note that I said in my OP that there was an enormous gulf between the ideal and the reality. That in no way invalidates the ideal. A melting pot or a thousand different cultures struggling and often fighting between themselves. Which sounds the better aim to you?
And who made this one small-minded instructor the final word of what terms denigrate others and should not be used outside his classroom?
The church I currently attend, within recent memory, decided after almost 100 years to no longer have its services in German. The church I attended in the 70’s at the time had recently given up its Nordic language services. Mainly because 3 churches of various nationalities merged had to get the old-timers to buy in.
Maybe but what do I tell my blond haired blue-eyed northern european ancestry daughter when she is crying over being harrassed by some self appointed SJW over some unimagined cultural misappropriation when my daughter thought it just looked cool and don’t really care where it came from. Salad bowl to me is “you keep yours and I’ll keep mine.” Melting pot theory is let’s share and have a common bond. In the mean time I’ll adapt your cultural input if it fits into my value system.
The same thing that a black or Hispanic or Asian or Arabic poppa tells his darling little girl when some idiot fascist tells her any of a thousand different racist things: You tell her that there are just some jerks in the world, and you shouldn’t worry about what they say, and so on. The only difference is that you’re going to have to give that speech a lot less often than your more-melanic counterpart will.
the assimilation problems of the Maghrebines in the France are something very much due to the rejectionist racism in the wider population and the French never admitting the issues. Over the past two decades it is demonstrated again and again in blind tests in access to jobs with identical CVs with “French French” and “Arabe/African” names (and pictures, as is the standard for the French practice) see massive rejection while the white French CV presumed holder is called in for the interview. Effects like this across the France, and in the discourse where the 2nd and the 3rd generation born are still often called “immigrants” as if they have just arrived. It is systematic and easily perceived, but the French refuse to address in any real way.
To have the wrong face, the wrong skin tone or the wrong name, it carries a direct burden on ‘assimilation’ - as **Monstro **has noted no matter what the persons’ desire.
It is always surprising to me to read that some how the Americans can think the multi-lingual education is some how some barrier to success or that mastering of more than one language is a very strange and hard thing.
Yes, I think I remember you are a Texan… Politics happened anti-foreigner paranoid politics in your war scares, for once there were in your country no great problem with the foreign language schoolingand then your country became different. But you have no memory of it…
so a political mythology, deluding is continued.
Clothy is a Houstonian–just like me. Well, not just like me. He’s not simply ignorant of history–he’s closing his eyes to current reality.
The HISD has a several multilingual programs. Most are geared to teaching students English ASAP, while offering some classes in (usually) Spanish so they don’t fall too far behind in the meantime. Other schools offer dual language or language immersion programs; these are mostly Magnet Schools–so the parents & students need to make an effort.
Harris County (Houston) is quite diverse. We went for Clinton at the last election–by a bigger margin than we’d preferred Obama. Democrats down the ballot also did well. Thirty states have smaller populations than our county–where’s our Electoral Vote?
Corroborating what others have been saying, my old Anthropology professor insisted there never was a melting pot, that it was more of a mixed salad, or salad bowl if you will, with each ingredient retaining its specific flavor.
Let’s pick a holiday. Any holiday that’s not traditional in the US (or whichever other reception country you wish to pick), but which happens to be traditional Elsewhere. And let’s say there’s a group of people from Elsewhere (they may have been born there, or their parents were) who decide to host a festival on that day, with food and drink and dances traditional of the holiday.
From the point of view of the hosts, they’re inviting their neighbors to try those foods and to learn cool things about Elsewhere. But there are people from whose point of view it is “emphasizing their unique culture” or “refusing to integrate”. It is this second group who complains about the current immigrants not melting down fast enough.
You obviously didn’t take classes in reading for comprehension. Were all your classes taught in French or just that one, which was aimed at teaching you French? That was my point. Sorry it sailed over your head.
Whatever the hell that was supposed to mean. Try writing coherently next time.
Strangely, almost everyone here seems to agree that Assimilation is dead. Onservatives are weeping for its demise, and liberals are dancing inn its grave. But both groups agree that the Melting Pot is dead.
I seem to be the only one saying that the deceased looks pretty healthy.
Assimilation is still working pretty well, from where I sit
Who here has said assimilation is dead?
It’s not dead. It’s just stupid to liken it to “melting”.
With religious holidays it gets very tricky. Christmas (or the “holiday season”) IS a big part of American culture. If you don’t celebrate anything this time of year then it’s kind of difficult. If I had a co-worker who was Muslim or Hindu, them getting me a holiday present (and vice versa) is a sign of integration–not celebrating the religious holiday but acknowledging the cultural importance in our society.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable metric, but others (especially hardcore atheists) may disagree.
My Thai wife, who has lived in the US before, is now in the process of “assimilating” now that we’ve moved back. She’s already more international than probably most of her countrymen, but that does not mean she’s losing any of her Thainess – and indeed, she certainly is not.
No one can convince me that “melting” is beneficial to anyone.
Take black Americans. For hundreds of years, this group tried their damndest to blend in, and the majority wouldn’t let that happen. So they formed their own cultural practices and traditions. Much of the American entertainment industry owes a great deal to the commitment of black folks to maintain their own identity.
The “melting” metaphor is strange to me since Americans pride themselves on being rugged individualists–free from the pressures of conformity. Why should this freedom only exist for individuals and not for groups?
And white folks have their own subcultures that are resistant to full assimilation, so how dare they expect other groups to be any different. See the Amish, the polygamous fundamentalist Mormons, the Hasidim, and various European immigrant communities (e.g., Brighton Beach). Why should I worry about getting a white guy’s stink eye for daring to speak in AAVE and lighting a kinera at my predominately black community center, when he speaks with a heavy Long Guyland accent and worships in a Catholic church and eats perogies? Especially since my ancestors have been here a lot longer than his. Just because he is white and most Americans are white, he gets to dictate what “American culture” is? No? So who gets to define what American culture is? And why must the American culture I partake in be the same one for you to partake in for us both to get along?
I’m still waiting for the Irish to assimilate. Every damn March 17 it’s “Look at me - I’m Irish! Look how Irish I am! Erin Go Bragh!”. Look, Paddy, you were born in America, you live in America, and you’re an American. Either assimilate already or go back to the family homestead in County fucking Cork.
And speak English!
Cloth, this post - and I might’ve for the one before it - will earn you a warning. Do not insult nor denigrate other posters. You should know better than this.
On the other hand, Ramira, this will earn a note but mostly because I don’t think it was aimed directly at Clothahump. Had it been I would certainly have warned you.
NOTE TO ALL: This thread is now on double secret probation. Everyone posting in it should be on their best behavior if they wish to avoid earning a warning themselves. I hope that’s clear.
I found Ramira’s point quite clear. You said that “politics and money” led to monolingual education; she gave the example of the Texas Germans, who had bilingual schools here until the anti-German mania prompted by our late entry into WW1 made them drop the German.
(The Handbook of Texas article I linked did mention other factors–like the end of new Germans immigration–contributing to the decline of the Texas German press & bilingual education. There are still plenty of proud German Texans, though.)
(Texas is an interesting state with a complex history well worth study. Yes, they started me off with Texas History Movies. But I’ve continued.)
Again. If there are such people, feel free to attack such people. I’m not aware of anyone who attack other people for hosting festivals celebrating such their traditional holidays.
But even assuming there are such people, it’s wrong to suggest that anyone critical of the current move away from the melting pot mentality is also critical of anyone who hosts a festival celebrating their traditional culture. And it’s wrong to do so in a debate in order to avoid discussion of the core issue by insisting that it only be discussed as a component of intolerance such as you describe.