# What Happened to the Intelectual Conservative Movement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807 "2011-04-26T19:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/21 "2011-04-26T23:16:38Z")
I’m not sure I agree with **Omar** ’s point that the rise of the Religious Right has drowned out intellectual conservatism. Or, more accurately, I don’t see why we should equate “non-intellectual” with “religious”. Populist muck-rakers can be religious (Palin) or non-religious (Trump). And there are certainly religious intellectuals (Kmiec would be a current conservative one I would cite, but there are obviously others). I think the bigger issue within the GOP currently is a strong anti-intellectual movement (not atypical of populist movements in general, I’d guess). This makes any sort of reasoned discussion very difficult, and puts us in a place where negotiation and compromise are verboten. As to **Shodan** ’s rather typical response, I don’t think it takes much showing to back up the claim that Rich Lowry is less of an intellectual than William Buckley. Or that Sarah Palin and Donald Trump are currently more influential than George Will and David Frum. As to the “where do they go from here” question - I’d say the 2012 primaries will tell us a lot. There’s a decent chance that someone like Romney or Daniels will beat back the populist hordes and offer a reasonable debate on the issues. At least I hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/22 "2011-04-26T23:31:03Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Buckley in his day made a contribution to the overall conservative movement - but he wasn’t the only tiller in the field. He always recognized the importance of other members of the movement and did not overemphasize his role. > > As such, when Rush Limbaugh appeared on the scene, Buckley instantly realized that Limbaugh was an ally and not a rival. He would have loved the Tea Partiers, from the evidence that I have read. > > This brought some criticism of Buckley from his many urbane liberal friends, now conveniently forgotten since Buckley is safely dead. This frequently happens when political figures die - we build little myths of them inside of our heads. Frequently for opposition figures we turn them into “the sensible {whatevers} of the old days.” > > When Buckley was alive he was often called a nazi - in fact, I can link a memorable video when this happened and nearly caused a fistfight. As a long time subscriber to Buckley’s National Review, reader of his books (real books, not the novels) and as someone who got his father to vote for him for Mayor of New York in 1965. you couldn’t be more wrong. Yes. he got into a shouting match with Gore Vidal, who was not exactly a representative of liberal moderation. I think we can trace back today’s common debate by shouting to that coverage. If you ever watched “Firing Line,” which I did, you’d know that liberal guests treated WFB with respect and were in turn treated with respect. Certainly he didn’t consider himself the only intellectual conservative - he funded NR to publish people like James Burnham and Russel Kirk. He certainly tried to influence politicians, and Reagan gave testimonials to NR. Remember, he strongly rejected the John Birch Society at a time when that was not that easy a thing to do in those circles. I doubt very much he’d have much good to say about Tea Partiers with racist signs or especially birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/23 "2011-04-26T23:36:02Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > As to **Shodan** ’s rather typical response, I don’t think it takes much showing to back up the claim that Rich Lowry is less of an intellectual than William Buckley. Or that Sarah Palin and Donald Trump are currently more influential than George Will and David Frum. Wills (who started in WFB’s NR) and Frum were exactly the intellectual conservatives I was thinking of, who work in the tradition of WFB. Wills has been marginalized (if he ever had that much influence) and Frum got booted (from AEI, I think) for heresy. I suspect the left listens to them more than the right does. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/24 "2011-04-26T23:48:44Z")
I’m not sure the intellectual conservative movement is gone. It’s clearly true they are not getting much publicity/airtime. I blame the horrible job our media is doing for a a lot of that effect. They won’t cover a rational even toned fact filled discussion, but if people shout at each other, or someone making a valid point gets a chorus of boos, we see plenty of it. I would also suggest that social conservatism , religious based or not, tends to overshadow intellectual conservatism. The Tea Party claimed it was concerned primarily about fiscal responsibility and smaller government , for which there are good intellectual arguments. After the elections I noticed a lot of officials focusing on abortion, gay marriage, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/25 "2011-04-27T00:39:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think this post is a good example of what has happened to good Republican intellectual discourse. Notice how the original question has been _very_ loosely reworded so that it can be dismissed with a hand wave-this is what passes for political discussion far too often these days. No. “Conservatives are all stupid poopy heads” is what passes for political discussion all too often on this very board. It’s mod sanctioned, and very popular. It’s also bullshit. I know the mods as well as the majority of posters consider the lack of many conservative voices here to be a good thing, but it isn’t. We are mocked, scorned, ridiculed…and we are right more often than not. IF the mods would put a stop to the “stupid poopy heads” line of argument, instead of ignoring, encouraging, or even participating in it, there might be a better quality of political discourse here. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/26 "2011-04-27T00:45:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > IF the mods would put a stop to the “stupid poopy heads” line of argument, instead of ignoring, encouraging, or even participating in it, there might be a better quality of political discourse here. Perhaps you should take it to the pit, the ultimate destination of all baseless rants. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/27 "2011-04-27T00:47:00Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/28 "2011-04-27T01:11:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > We are mocked, scorned, ridiculed…and we are right more often than not. This is laughable. The modern conservative movement is based on a complex network of nonsense. Of course specific conservatives are smart and thoughtful people. But the bulk and heft of the movement is based on imaginary things like self-funding tax cuts and disbelief in global warming. It isn’t this board’s fault that modern conservatism is being ruled by a bunch of mental-deficients. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/29 "2011-04-27T01:27:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is laughable. The modern conservative movement is based on a complex network of nonsense. > > Of course specific conservatives are smart and thoughtful people. But the bulk and heft of the movement is based on imaginary things like self-funding tax cuts and disbelief in global warming. It isn’t this board’s fault that modern conservatism is being ruled by a bunch of mental-deficients. Oh yeah? [Kindly point to where large numbers of conservatives all across the country ever:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13693185#post13693185) ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/30 "2011-04-27T01:51:38Z")
Has anyone noted the fact that NR is still around and influential and still contains some fairly serious policy-oriented, principled analysis? They were more in bed with the neocon jerks than I’d have preferred, but Buckley’s tone and level of discourse (like it or not) largely endures there. **First Things** is technically a religious or culturally-oriented magazine but its writer’s preferences on issues that touch on politics (or can be politicized) is almost always distinctly conservative. It’s written at a high, almost academic, level, and yields few simplistic soundbites. [http://www.firstthings.com/](http://www.firstthings.com/) The American Spectator is not academic or intellectual, and has taken some weird twists along the way and had some quirky characters associated with it, and is clearly partisan, but I’ve seen serious political analysis or argumentation from many of their writers over the years. One difference is that Fox and Rush are on the same spectra that everyone uses/flips through everyday, whereas if you weren’t incentivized to do so, you might not ever know the thoughtful conservative journals, websites, blogs existed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/31 "2011-04-27T02:02:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > No. “Conservatives are all stupid poopy heads” is what passes for political discussion all too often on this very board. It’s mod sanctioned, and very popular. It’s also bullshit. Then quit saying it. > [@Oakminster](#): > > I know the mods as well as the majority of posters consider the lack of many conservative voices here to be a good thing, but it isn’t. Not true. > [@Oakminster](#): > > IF the mods would put a stop to the “stupid poopy heads” line of argument, instead of ignoring, encouraging, or even participating in it, there might be a better quality of political discourse here. Once again, the power is in your hands. If you don’t post those words, you won’t have to look at them. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/32 "2011-04-27T03:08:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then quit saying it. > > Not true. Once again, the power is in your hands. If you don’t post those words, you won’t have to look at them. Are you actually claiming the “Conservative = Stupid, Evil, Poopyhead” line of argument does not appear here frequently? Really? _Really?_ And no semantic games. The same sentiment can be expressed in various ways without using those exact words. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/33 "2011-04-27T03:33:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Are you actually claiming the “Conservative = Stupid, Evil, Poopyhead” line of argument does not appear here frequently? > > Really? > _Really?_ > And no semantic games. The same sentiment can be expressed in various ways without using those exact words. Your phrasing _is_ a childish semantic game, and so far in this thread _you_ are the only one playing. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/34 "2011-04-27T03:59:29Z")
My guess is once the religious right started coming to power is when it was taken away and ideology became more important than reality. But I don’t know how it became so ideologically driven and anti-pragmatic. All national GOPers really seem to care about anymore is ideological purity, and pragmatism or good ideas aren’t important. You can’t ascribe it all to the religious right, even if they do make up 40% of republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/35 "2011-04-27T06:23:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your phrasing _is_ a childish semantic game, and so far in this thread _you_ are the only one playing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/36 "2011-04-27T13:29:31Z")
“Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?” “He’s over there.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/37 "2011-04-27T14:15:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Whether or not the intellectual wing of the Republican party is _effective_ is certainly worthy of debate, wouldn’t you say? Who are they, and what voice do they have in this sound-bite society? Surely the conservatives in this thread, if they wish to refute the OP, would be better served by telling us who the current “intellectual conservatives” are, rather than whining about how poorly treated they are. I mean, there’s gotta be _somebody_. William Bennett, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/38 "2011-04-27T14:15:28Z")
Thank you all for a very interesting discussion. I learned a few things and I thank you for it. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/39 "2011-04-27T15:18:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Surely the conservatives in this thread, if they wish to refute the OP, would be better served by telling us who the current “intellectual conservatives” are, rather than whining about how poorly treated they are. Done and done. > [@](#): > > I mean, there’s gotta be _somebody_. William Bennett, maybe? That’s his pose though his conservative credentials are suspect. But yes, think tanks with which he was/is associated were what guided/perverted (disastrously, but that’s always a danger with intellectuals or “intellectuals” – Ho, Marx, Engels were also self-styled intellectuals) the entire Bush foreign policy. Hmmm. Who else? Thomas Sowell. Lino Graglia. Until he died, Richard John Neuhaus. James Bowman. Richard Brookhiser. All very well-read, literate, persuasive conservative theorists. Ever heard of those guys? If not, a better version of the Q. might be “why do I and the MSM not seek out the writings of the current conservative thought leadership?” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-intelectual-conservative-movement/579807/40 "2011-04-27T15:19:48Z")
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