# What happened to the last 3 lines of the Lord's Prayer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644 "2012-12-10T21:58:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/1 "2012-12-10T21:58:18Z")
So again, there I was at my niece’s Catholic funeral, and the Lord’s Prayer was recited. I actually spoke it out loud but unwittingly nearly screwed up the end because while everybody stopped after the line “But deliver us from evil” I nearly kept going with “For thine is the kingdom…” How did everybody know to shut up after that line but I didn’t? This is how I learned it: Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen. …when did people stop reciting the last 3 lines? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/2 "2012-12-10T22:00:41Z")
It’s my understanding that Protestants typically say the last part but Catholics don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/3 "2012-12-10T22:05:25Z")
11/27/2011 - the catholic church changed mass last year. I Haven’t been, but read stuff like “peace be with you” has changed. Was that the only difference you noticed? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/4 "2012-12-10T22:12:58Z")
In my Catholic Church growing up in the 80s the priest said the last three lines by himself only, the unwashed masses only joining in on the “Amen” part. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/5 "2012-12-10T22:14:23Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It’s my understanding that Protestants typically say the last part but Catholics don’t. As a Catholic schoolboy, I don’t recall it being said every time, but definitely heard it occasionally. It was more of a “depends on the person’s preference” thing. According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxology) the doxology ($5 word) was not contained in the earliest texts and is generally considered a later addition now. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/6 "2012-12-10T22:17:32Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It’s my understanding that Protestants typically say the last part but Catholics don’t. Yup. That was so annoying back when they had teacher led prayer in public school. I was Protestant while the teacher and most of the students were Catholic. They looked at me funny when I said the last bit, and if I didn’t say it I felt like a traitor. I was so happy when the SCOTUS outlawed teacher-led prayer. I’m not sure what is wrong with people who want prayer back in school, posting the 10 commandments, Bible study, etc. Whose prayers, what translation and books of the Bible, and what version of the 10 commandments are they supposed to use? Do you want the govt to pick them? ---
**Author:** ![boozilu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@boozilu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boozilu)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/7 "2012-12-10T22:19:52Z")
Catholics don’t consider the doxology to be part of The Lord’s Prayer. During mass, we stop after “deliver us from evil”. The priest then says some words, then we say the doxology. Been that way for as long as I can remember (40 years or so). ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/8 "2012-12-10T22:21:22Z")
I take back what I said - according to this: [http://www.parishes.bne.catholic.net.au/maryborough/missal.htm](http://www.parishes.bne.catholic.net.au/maryborough/missal.htm) The Lord’s Prayer wasn’t one of the changes. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/9 "2012-12-10T22:38:27Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > I take back what I said - according to this: > [http://www.parishes.bne.catholic.net.au/maryborough/missal.htm](http://www.parishes.bne.catholic.net.au/maryborough/missal.htm) > The Lord’s Prayer wasn’t one of the changes. Of all of the pages to be in Comic Sans… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/10 "2012-12-10T22:41:20Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > In my Catholic Church growing up in the 80s the priest said the last three lines by himself only, the unwashed masses only joining in on the “Amen” part. Yeah, Catholics don’t say the doxology as part of the Lord’s Prayer. Typically, what happens is we say the Lord’s Prayer, ending with “but deliver us from evil.” (No “Amen.”) Then the priest says “deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.” To which the congregation then responds: “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.” That has been the way every Catholic mass I’ve been to since the 80s has been said, at least as far as I remember. (Although I don’t know if anything has changed as far as that goes since the new mass.) ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/11 "2012-12-10T22:50:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, Catholics don’t say the doxology as part of the Lord’s Prayer. Typically, what happens is we say the Lord’s Prayer, ending with “but deliver us from evil.” (No “Amen.”) Then the priest says “deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.” To which the congregation then responds: “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.” > > That has been the way every Catholic mass I’ve been to since the 80s has been said, at least as far as I remember. (Although I don’t know if anything has changed as far as that goes since the new mass.) Yeah, you are right… as soon as I hit Submit I had second thoughts about my memories of the order of the Mass… a 20 year church attendance gap will do that to you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/12 "2012-12-10T23:23:42Z")
Don’t get me started on the “debts/debtors” vs “trespasses/tresspass against” dichotomy! ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/13 "2012-12-10T23:41:08Z")
Catholics don’t say that part, but after Vatican II it was added after the congregation said the prayer and the priest said a couple of sentences. Then we all shake hands. Ikk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/14 "2012-12-11T00:08:01Z")
And the original: [Matthew 6:9-13](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:9-14&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: > > “‘Our Father in heaven, > hallowed be your name, > 10 your kingdom come, > your will be done, > on earth as it is in heaven. > 11 Give us today our daily bread. > 12 And forgive us our debts, > as we also have forgiven our debtors. > 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] > but deliver us from the evil one.\*\*’ > > 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. > … Or alternately, [Luke 11:2-4](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11:2-5&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: > > “‘Father,[a] > hallowed be your name, > your kingdom come.\*\* > 3 Give us each day our daily bread. > 4 Forgive us our sins, > for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c] > And lead us not into temptation.[d]’” > > 5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; > … (I included an extra verse at the end of each quote to make it clear that I wasn’t chopping anything off the prayer) So really, the question isn’t when the last three lines were removed; it’s when they were added. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/15 "2012-12-11T00:29:58Z")
In Hermetic Qabala (as opposed to old Jewish men Qabala) and Western Occultism of various flavors, there’s a personal rite called The Qabalistic Cross. There’s some visualization involved, and the making of one’s body into a cross, with the intonation of the Hebrew words “Atun, Malkuth, Ve Geburah, Ve Gedulah, La Olam Amen” (spelling varies according to source. A lot.) This is roughly translated as: Atun: Unto Thee Malkuth: Kingdom Ve Geburah: Power Ve Gedulah: Glory La Olam Amen: Forever (and Ever), Amen Neophytes are tickled when they make the connection to The Lord’s Prayer. I don’t have the heart to tell them it’s not actually part of The Lord’s Prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/16 "2012-12-11T00:30:01Z")
Just an aside, but as you know, John Wilkes Booth used the word “doxologising” as his cue to shoot Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/17 "2012-12-11T00:40:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the original: > > [Matthew 6:9-13](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:9-14&version=NIV) No, no, the [King James Version](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:9-14&version=KJV) is the original! 😉 > [@](#): > > 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. > > 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. > > 11 Give us this day our daily bread. > > 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. > > 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. > > 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: The footnote, in the version you quoted, notes that some late manuscripts insert the “for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.” Is anything known about how or why those words made it into “late manuscripts” but not earlier ones? ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/18 "2012-12-11T01:49:06Z")
In the churches I attended in the 1970s and 1980s (French-speaking Catholic), everybody recited the prayer without those 3 lines, with “Amen” in closing, then the priest recited some other paragraph (something like “bring peace to the world, etc. as we await the return of Jesus our Saviour”) and then everybody replied with the equivalent of “for thine is the Kingdom”, etc. and another “Amen”. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/19 "2012-12-11T01:57:16Z")
I went to Catholic school from 1-12, and we never said it. I remember once having a Protestant in class (!) in about 4th grade, and the teacher using it as a teaching moment to tell us about other religions. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644/20 "2012-12-11T02:47:24Z")
> [@boozilu](#): > > Catholics don’t consider the doxology to be part of The Lord’s Prayer. During mass, we stop after “deliver us from evil”. The priest then says some words, then we say the doxology. > > Been that way for as long as I can remember (40 years or so). And we don’t say the doxology when we say the prayer outside of Mass- at a wake, at the beginning of school, while saying the rosary etc [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-last-3-lines-of-the-lords-prayer/643644.md?page=2)