# What happened to the reputations of the Neocons that supported the invasion of Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624 "2008-05-26T06:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/21 "2008-05-26T20:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Do you seriously think any of them have had a professional setback? [/QUOTE] Rumsfeld seems to have lost his job over it (granted several years later then he should have). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/22 "2008-05-26T21:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] Rumsfeld seems to have lost his job over it (granted several years later then he should have). [/QUOTE] I dunno. Rumsfeld, 74, immediately resigned after the 2006 elections, when the Republicans lost Congress. Policy-wise, it seems to me that Bush wanted somebody with more interest in counter-insurgency tactics and perhaps a little younger. His replacement Robert Gates, 63, was a member of the Iraq Study Group, whose recommendations Bush nonetheless rejected. Perhaps Rumsfeld was not ejected for his original advocacy of war, but rather for his subsequent lack of imagination. The torture scandals may have played a role as well. I guess we’ll have to wait for the memoirs. [http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/08/rumsfeld/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/08/rumsfeld/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/23 "2008-05-27T03:35:40Z")
[Douglas Feith tries to lay the blame on Bremer-](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/08/AR2008030802724.html) See also [Douglas Feith’s Blame Game](http://iraqupdate.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/doug-feith-is-to-blame-for-the-flawed-intelligence/) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/24 "2008-05-27T03:45:30Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] What if it’s not lunch time? [/QUOTE] I’ll think of something. I really hate that smug smarmy sonofabitch. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/25 "2008-05-27T04:11:56Z")
With all due respect to the learned dopers who have preceeded me in this thread, maybe they’re too busy celebrating that they turned out to be right in the end: [http://www.redstate.com/stories/war/about\_that\_surge\_strategy](http://www.redstate.com/stories/war/about_that_surge_strategy) From the above link: Meanwhile, the Iraqi Army has continued its clearing operations in Mosul, arresting more than 1,000 suspected supporters of AQI, but apparently hasn’t had to fight much. According to Interior Ministry spokesman Major-General Abdul-Karim Khalaf, Iraqi-led operations in Mosul, capital of Nineveh province, had destroyed “most of the insurgents’ network.” He continued: “We have arrested most of the wanted men and the operations are continuing. The are no longer big challenges in Mosul. There will always be sleeper cells, but that is not important because we will be able to deal with those cells.” No doubt the war was going poorly for the first year or so, but there is more and more evidence that we are winning. The Iraqi army is doing more of the fighting, violence is down, the insurgents have for the most part switched sides and are fighting alongside us against Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda is pretty much on the ropes, not only in Iraq, but they are losing support worldwide. It looks like democracy will be a success in Iraq. Those who were willing to take abuse - see above for a small sample - in order to provide Iraqis a chance to rule their own country deserve our admiration. BTW, if anyone has any stats showing that the war is not being won, or that Al Qaeda is gaining worldwide support, please post. I’m open to other info. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/26 "2008-05-27T04:39:29Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] You are assuming that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, given what was known at the time. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t a mistake, it was a fraud. A deliberate con. They knew, without any doubt, that they could not prove Iraq was any threat to the US. Even banned weapons, had they existed, would not (contrary to intentionally fostered, widespread belief) have been a justification for regime change. The only legal justification under the UN Charter for an attack on the sovereignty of another country (i.e. overthrowing the government, not just military action in general) is self defense. It is not enough to show that another country has a few rotten mustard gas shells left over from the 80’s, you have to _prove_ (not speculate), that said country has both the capability and the intention of using them agaonst your country. Even if Iraq had been in possession of WMD (which the neocons knew for a fact they couldn’t prove), that still would not have constituted an imminent threat to the US sufficient to justify regime change. That Bush and his handlers lied through their teeth to build political will for an invasion they wanted for reasons quite other than self-defense is beyond any credible protest. They did make some massive mistakes, though. Basically they were wrong about every single facet of what they predicted would happen after the completion of the initial invasion. They said the Iraqis would literally throw flowers at our feet and welcome us as liberators. They said it would all be over in a matter of a few months. They said Irai oil would pay for it all. They were miserably, disastrously wrong about everything. The really inexcusable part (the reason I think calling the invasion a “mistake” is too charitable a characterization) is that every military and foreign policy expert _told_ them what would happen. It’s not a question of hindsight being 20/20. Their _foresight_ was 20/20. Hell, even Cheney knew what would happen, as we now know from the comments he made during GWI. They never showed any good reason to invade Iraq. Anybody with any brains knew it would be a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/27 "2008-05-27T04:45:00Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] With all due respect to the learned dopers who have preceeded me in this thread, maybe they’re too busy celebrating that they turned out to be right in the end [/quote] What were they right about? Your quote from your right wing, kool-aid chugger site does not provide that information. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/28 "2008-05-27T04:47:13Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] With all due respect to the learned dopers who have preceeded me in this thread, maybe they’re too busy celebrating that they turned out to be right in the end: [http://www.redstate.com/stories/war/about\_that\_surge\_strategy](http://www.redstate.com/stories/war/about_that_surge_strategy) From the above link: Meanwhile, the Iraqi Army has continued its clearing operations in Mosul, arresting more than 1,000 suspected supporters of AQI, but apparently hasn’t had to fight much. According to Interior Ministry spokesman Major-General Abdul-Karim Khalaf, Iraqi-led operations in Mosul, capital of Nineveh province, had destroyed “most of the insurgents’ network.” He continued: “We have arrested most of the wanted men and the operations are continuing. The are no longer big challenges in Mosul. There will always be sleeper cells, but that is not important because we will be able to deal with those cells.” No doubt the war was going poorly for the first year or so, but there is more and more evidence that we are winning. The Iraqi army is doing more of the fighting, violence is down, the insurgents have for the most part switched sides and are fighting alongside us against Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda is pretty much on the ropes, not only in Iraq, but they are losing support worldwide. It looks like democracy will be a success in Iraq. Those who were willing to take abuse - see above for a small sample - in order to provide Iraqis a chance to rule their own country deserve our admiration. BTW, if anyone has any stats showing that the war is not being won, or that Al Qaeda is gaining worldwide support, please post. I’m open to other info. [/QUOTE] The notion that the hawk neocons were “right” in some fashion, because after hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands upon thousands of lives down the rat hole that is the insane, waist high river of feces we’ve been wading in for several years now… that the US has been able to use a massive force infusion to squash insurgents in a selected area is … well.. interesting. Desperate and grasping.. but still interesting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/29 "2008-05-27T06:38:21Z")
Now, just a second, you guys! With the defeat of AlQ in Iraq, isn’t it obvious that a major milestone in the War on Terr has been passed? That only leaves AlQ in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and a few other minor locales. And only one…one!..has nuclear weapons! (AlQ in N Korea we can safely ignore…) And are we not beloved of the nations for our bold and forthright principles? On hearing our name said aloud, do not Muslilms worldwide afford us the respectful token of spitting on the ground (a gesture of profound admiration, got it from Paul Wolfowitz, renowned ME scholar…) Why, every day, another of our admirers in Iraq is so overcome by adoration, they actually _explode!_ No shit, they totally blow up, little tiny pieces of person all over! Which of us loves America that much, to burst into hamburger shrapnel like that! And when The Leader speaks sternly to the Saudis, why, they can’t raise their voice above a timid and cringing whisper as they tell him to go fuck himself (while peeing on his shoes, another gesture of abiding respect, according to Doug Feith, another noted scholar… (I swear, I’m determined to be sane and sober, but some folks seem equally determined to make me choose…) ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/30 "2008-05-27T10:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Posted by Plan B: > No doubt the war was going poorly for the first year or so, but there is more and more evidence that we are winning. What are we winning? What will be the outcome of our winning? Exactly what is it that we will have won? Other than Mission Accomplished and that We have turned the corner in Iraq and that The insurgents are on their last legs and other shit to foul to mention. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/31 "2008-05-27T13:14:12Z")
FWIW, [PNAC’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac) website has not been updated for several years and is now inoperable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/32 "2008-05-27T13:16:16Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] You are assuming that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, given what was known at the time. [/QUOTE] [Oh, it was much, much worse than a **mistake.**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=381910) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/33 "2008-05-27T13:19:08Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Do you seriously think any of them have had a professional setback? [/QUOTE] [Bill Kristol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kristol) is now writing for the _New York Times._ That’s a setback, isn’t it? I mean, given the RW view of that liberal rag, it’s like Naom Chomsky being reduced to a job at the _National Review._😉 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/34 "2008-05-27T14:35:14Z")
Speaking only for myself, who initially supported the invasion, the answer would be deep shame and embarrassment. Oh, and I voted for Obama, Kucinich and Strickland as a result of my awakening. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/35 "2008-05-27T14:38:21Z")
They all seem to have been very successful in their post-debacle careers and/or retirement. I don’t believe any of them stay awake at night wondering, “If only I had listented to…” or “My God! How could I have been so blind?” A good night’s sleep with uncluttered dreams, a full belly, some money in the bank. Who needs a reputation? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/36 "2008-05-27T15:04:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It wasn’t a mistake, it was a fraud. [/QUOTE] Yes, in effect it was, for the American public. But there were two separate (in some ways competing) motivations. That might have been why it ended up so messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/37 "2008-05-27T15:17:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What were they right about? Your quote from your right wing, kool-aid chugger site does not provide that information. [/QUOTE] It’s obvious from the title of the thread. Somehow the name calling, although impressive, isn’t all that persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/38 "2008-05-27T15:19:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] … it’s like Naom Chomsky being reduced to a job at the _National Review._😉 [/QUOTE] I rarely laugh out loud. Thanks, **Brain**. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/39 "2008-05-27T15:20:20Z")
“Reputation” impresses me as a potentially problematic term. My understanding is that these guys’ views never were tremendously “popular.” Nor did they aim at a mass audience. But they are impressive proof that you need not convince the majority, if the minority you convince is sufficiently powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/40 "2008-05-27T15:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=astro] The notion that the hawk neocons were “right” in some fashion, because after hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands upon thousands of lives down the rat hole that is the insane, waist high river of feces we’ve been wading in for several years now… that the US has been able to use a massive force infusion to squash insurgents in a selected area is … well.. interesting. Desperate and grasping.. but still interesting. [/QUOTE] Again, impressive name calling. If I start losing an argument with a 4 year old I’ll refer back to these posts, maybe give you a call for help. But where are the stats showing the war is going badly lately? In case you haven’t noticed even the NYT has started to acknowledge that we’re winning. And to the extent that there is a bit of content in your post, I’ll respond. It’s not one selected area, unless you consider Iraq a selected area. Where in Iraq are the bad guys winning? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624.md?page=3)