# What happened to the reputations of the Neocons that supported the invasion of Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624 "2008-05-26T06:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/61 "2008-05-28T02:33:42Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] True. Conservatives typically consider crippling, torturing, killing and otherwise inflicting misery upon lots of non-Americans a victory in itself. Every death of an innocent is a victory for them. [/QUOTE] If you really believe that, then you know nothing about conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/62 "2008-05-28T02:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I’m surprised that so many liberals have a hard time understanding what is to win in Iraq. I don’t think conservatives would have a hard time with that one. Probably some sort of values thing or differences in ways of perceiving. In the simplest terms a win happens if 28 million Iraqis get to rid themselves of the Baathist regime and live under a democracy. If you don’t get that I’m sorry; I don’t have the time or energy to explain that to you. Maybe the reason conservatives get it so much quicker is that we have more concern for the little guys. 😉 [/QUOTE] You… actually think it’s the _Baathists_ that are trying to kill us at this stage in the game? Wow…just wow. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/63 "2008-05-28T02:42:29Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Even if, by some miracle, democracy should hold in Iraq longer than thirty seconds after the last helicopter leaves, should it then be a policy of the United States to invade non-democratic nations and impose democracy upon them? Who’s next, Russia? [/QUOTE] That’s a good question, worthy of debate for sure. If I were a citizen of Russia or Cuba or North Korea or even Venezuela, I’d welcome any and all support in overthrowing the tyranny ruling my country. As for what the US should do now, or next, that’s a complicated question. I don’t know for sure. Too many variables to consider. Why are you so pessimistic about the abilities of the Iraqis to sustain a democracy afer we leave? Seems like they’re doing a great job right now. And their army has done a great job in taking the lead in Basra. From what I’ve read the Iraqis are good people who unfortunately have not had the good fortune that we’ve had in the US. They want pretty much the same things that everyone else wants. And they’ve moved away from the Islamists at breakneck speed. Most of the insurgents of 2004 are fighting alongside us right now. They appreciate democracy more than most of us, because they’ve lived under tyrannies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/64 "2008-05-28T02:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] If you really believe that, then you know nothing about conservatives. [/QUOTE] I’ve been watching them and what they do all my life. “Conservative” is a polite word for “evil, ignorant, stupid, and foolish”, in my opinion. Conservatives are virtually always on the wrong side; morally, practically, and factually. They are the bottom of the moral and intellectual barrel. Name an issue, and they are the bad guys and have been for longer than I’ve been alive. The conservatives are the ones that oppose(d) civil rights, equal rights for women, gay marriage, evolution, abortion, and on and on; they are the ones that support(ed) segregation, homophobia, creationism, the subjugation of women . . . and the Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/65 "2008-05-28T02:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=astro] You… actually think it’s the _Baathists_ that are trying to kill us at this stage in the game? Wow…just wow. [/QUOTE] No, I never said that. Read the title of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/66 "2008-05-28T02:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I’ve been watching them and what they do all my life. “Conservative” is a polite word for “evil, ignorant, stupid, and foolish”, in my opinion. Conservatives are virtually always on the wrong side; morally, practically, and factually. They are the bottom of the moral and intellectual barrel. Name an issue, and they are the bad guys and have been for longer than I’ve been alive. The conservatives are the ones that oppose(d) civil rights, equal rights for women, gay marriage, evolution, abortion, and on and on; they are the ones that support(ed) segregation, homophobia, creationism, the subjugation of women . . . and the Iraq war. [/QUOTE] I think you’re confusing social conservatives with libertarian, small government conservatives. Which is fair enough, I didn’t distinguish which group I was referring to. Anyway, I’m in the latter group. I don’t think you’ll find much libertarian conservative resistance to any of the causes you mentioned. And the concept of social conservative is pretty murky. There probably should be a better word for them. Anyway, it’s easy to be a social conservative statist by today’s definitions. If you want to get an idea of what today’s conservatives are about I’d suggest listening to some of Hugh Hewitt’s podcasts. If you can find a hint of racism or contempt for the little man please let me know. I won’t recommend a specific podcast because I’d be accused of cherry picking. Choose any you like. [http://townhall.com/TalkRadio/Show.aspx?RadioShowID=5](http://townhall.com/TalkRadio/Show.aspx?RadioShowID=5) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/67 "2008-05-28T03:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I think you’re confusing social conservatives with libertarian, small government conservatives. [/quote] Not really. One group prefers tyranny and greed and malice through government **and** business; one prefers just tyranny and malice through business; they don’t want government getting in the way of them crushing people. Libertarianism is the anarchy of the right; sociopathy as a political ideology. And those small government types are exactly the sorts who inflicted all that evil on Iraq, and did their best to cripple them so they couldn’t recover. [QUOTE=Plan B] If you want to get an idea of what today’s conservatives are about I’d suggest listening to some of Hugh Hewitt’s podcasts. [/quote] Lying is the norm in such matters. I pay attention to what they do, not what they say. And it’s especially the norm among anyone morally debased enough to be a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/68 "2008-05-28T04:18:44Z")
OK. I’m calling “whoosh” here. I mean, come one…Hugh Hewitt? You can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/69 "2008-05-28T04:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] That’s a good question, worthy of debate for sure. If I were a citizen of Russia or Cuba or North Korea or even Venezuela, I’d welcome any and all support in overthrowing the tyranny ruling my country. As for what the US should do now, or next, that’s a complicated question. I don’t know for sure. Too many variables to consider. Why are you so pessimistic about the abilities of the Iraqis to sustain a democracy afer we leave? Seems like they’re doing a great job right now. And their army has done a great job in taking the lead in Basra. From what I’ve read the Iraqis are good people who unfortunately have not had the good fortune that we’ve had in the US. They want pretty much the same things that everyone else wants. And they’ve moved away from the Islamists at breakneck speed. Most of the insurgents of 2004 are fighting alongside us right now. They appreciate democracy more than most of us, because they’ve lived under tyrannies. [/QUOTE] I am glad someone swallows all the crap the government feeds us. Congrats. Saddam was a bad guy but women wore western clothes and held jobs. They were over half the students in the universities. How have women fared since our occupation? Millions have fled and are living in nearby countries. They were the educated The government we back provides no services and runs what we allow. It is a sham. The conditions in Iraq have deteriorated horribly. Plumbing,electricity and water are at best sporadic. unemp[loyment is 65 percent. We blew the infrastructure apart and paid billions to have some of it fixed. Most is not. The Iraqis are being occupied by foreigners and like it as much as you would. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/70 "2008-05-28T04:43:17Z")
[“The Emperor Clothes is becoming sort of Pied Piper?”](http://townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=7807eae9-f422-4107-825c-4774210b10e7) WTF? My goodness ol’ “socialist” Obama has got him so frightened he’s practically pissing himself. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/71 "2008-05-28T11:19:33Z")
I just reviewed the entire page and found only insults and name calling from the leftists. This is not a debate. I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/72 "2008-05-28T11:38:07Z")
I just can’t stop reading the title as “What happened to the reputation of the [Necrons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrons)”. (Time to bring back the R-Undead designation?) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/73 "2008-05-28T12:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Setting aside snark, I can find some definite reason for hope there. If Iran acts responsibly and reasonably as regards Iran’s Sunni minority, enormous strides can be made. A rapprochment between the US and Iran could be the most positive, peace assuring development of the decade. (Remember: AlQ hates them almost as much as they hate us. “Enemy of my enemy”, and all that.) [/quote] Well, distrust became loathe when Bush made the Axis of Evil speech. Iran was the first country to give us flyover rights to bomb Afghanistan after 9/11 and then he slapped them in their face. Iran is IMO the best hope for that region. It’s time to recognize Persia as a strong influence. Besides, we should be more worried about Sunnis. At the end of the day, a Shi’ite power bloc is probably good for everyone as Muslims are a majority Sunni. This of course is not a good development for Israel with an Iranian backed Hezbollah. > [@](#): > > Iran backing the Maliki regime and muzzling al Sadr. Maliki declares Iraq secure, and invites the US to leave. (\* Now\* the boquets are scattered in our path.) Even the Bushiviks get a cookie, they can declare that all of this is a result of the glurge, vindicating their good judgement and leadership after all! And I can name half a dozen posters who will insist in these very pages that Iran saving our bacon is _really_ Victory, but the dirty fucking hippies hate Bush too much to recognize the brilliance of The Leader. Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/74 "2008-05-28T12:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I’ve been watching them and what they do all my life. “Conservative” is a polite word for “evil, ignorant, stupid, and foolish”, in my opinion. Conservatives are virtually always on the wrong side; morally, practically, and factually. They are the bottom of the moral and intellectual barrel. Name an issue, and they are the bad guys and have been for longer than I’ve been alive. The conservatives are the ones that oppose(d) civil rights, equal rights for women, gay marriage, evolution, abortion, and on and on; they are the ones that support(ed) segregation, homophobia, creationism, the subjugation of women . . . and the Iraq war. [/QUOTE] There goes Der Trihs again unable to distinguish his own opinion from facts. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/75 "2008-05-28T12:36:18Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] There goes Der Trihs again unable to distinguish his own opinion from facts. [/QUOTE] This entire thread has been a series of posted opinions where the random fact was only cherry picked to make a point. No one has seriously addresssed the actual point of the OP in quite a while. So I am not sure why you are selecting one poster for scorn–especially one who was honest enough to place at least “in my opinion” into his text. Knock it off. = = = With all the pointless hostility already expressed in this thread, with no attempts to answer the question, I suspect that it has a very short future, anyway. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/76 "2008-05-28T13:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Why are you so pessimistic about the abilities of the Iraqis to sustain a democracy afer we leave? Seems like they’re doing a great job right now. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Great job? Iraq is a [failed state.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) The government is thoroughly corrupt and thoroughly ineffectual, even in Baghdad. It’s hardly a government at all. People do better relying for security and protection on the strongest local militia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/77 "2008-05-28T13:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] “Conservative” is a polite word for “evil, ignorant, stupid, and foolish”, in my opinion. [/QUOTE] :mad: :dubious: It is **not** a polite word! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/78 "2008-05-28T13:43:41Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I think you’re confusing social conservatives with libertarian, small government conservatives. Which is fair enough, I didn’t distinguish which group I was referring to. Anyway, I’m in the latter group. I don’t think you’ll find much libertarian conservative resistance to any of the causes you mentioned. And the concept of social conservative is pretty murky. There probably should be a better word for them. [/QUOTE] [Take your pick.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9423088&highlight=wooldridge#post9423088) [QUOTE=Plan B] If you want to get an idea of what today’s conservatives are about I’d suggest listening to some of Hugh Hewitt’s podcasts. [/quote] :dubious: Hugh Hewitt? Author of, [_If It’s Not Close, They Can’t Cheat?_](http://www.amazon.com/Its-Close-They-Cant-Cheat/dp/0785263195) If **that’s** what todays conservatives are about, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to take them seriously. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/79 "2008-05-28T16:26:54Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] That’s a good question, worthy of debate for sure. If I were a citizen of Russia or Cuba or North Korea or even Venezuela, I’d welcome any and all support in overthrowing the tyranny ruling my country. As for what the US should do now, or next, that’s a complicated question. I don’t know for sure. Too many variables to consider. [/QUOTE] One of those variables is the possibility that if you were a citizen of one of those places, you **might** be a regime-supporting kool-aid drinker. Or you might be a family man with an unarticulated yearning for change of some sort, but not the kind that would put you and your family at the risk of physical harm to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624/80 "2008-05-28T20:44:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by LouisB > It was known to about a 99.9% probability that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction > I’ve been against the war from the start, but in all fairness I do not think that this is true. Lincoln Chaffee, a Republican (but not a neo con), was the only Senate Republican to vote against authorization. Why? He went to CIA on his own and asked them explain the need, and wrote in his recent book that they gave really unconvincing evidence. He said he could tell that even they didn’t really believe there was a need to invade. What happened to him? He got voted out of office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-reputations-of-the-neocons-that-supported-the-invasion-of-iraq/450624.md?page=5)