# What happened to the Ringwraiths after Sauron snuffed it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 6, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140 "2006-12-06T23:06:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/101 "2006-12-12T22:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=flight] Not sure I buy that. We know that those who have been in the undying lands (and Maiar like Gandalf) already exist in the spirit realm and therefore would likely not be shifted. Had the other two owners of the Elven rings been to the undying lands? [/QUOTE] The other three owners. Gil-Galad, who wore Vilya before Elrond, never had. Neither had Elrond. Cirdan, who wore Narya before giving it to Gandalf, was Moriquendi as well. He never left Middle-Earth, having been persuaded to tarry in Beleriand by Osse during the Great Journey. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc348/32.png) [@MonkeyMule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMule)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/102 "2006-12-13T03:38:27Z")
[QUOTE=Carl Corey] Henry IV of England is the king you mentioned. He didn’t die from battle wounds, rather a disfiguring disease that took several years to kill him. We don’t know what the disease was. The Jerusalem chamber story sounds like fiction, although that is where Henry died. [/QUOTE] According to [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_England) page: > [@](#): > > It is said in Holinshed (and taken up in Shakespeare’s play) that it was predicted to Henry he would die in Jerusalem. Henry took this to mean that he would die on crusade, but in fact it meant that, in 1413, he died in the Jerusalem Chamber in the house of the Abbot of Westminster. He died with his executor Thomas Langley at his side. So it may not be 100% fiction, though urban legand turned play it might be. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/103 "2006-12-13T03:44:12Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] I checked it out. It’s full of contradictory crap. [/QUOTE] Perfect and canon? No. Full of crap? I don’t think so. It gives a lot of good data, some decent cites from JRRT himself (and some contradictory statements from him too), and recognizes the inherent problems in speaking definitively in an indefinite world. And it’s a work in progress, having been further edited as recently as last month, after having been up for years. It’ll settle a few arguments, provide decent justification for other arguments, and will open one’s mind to a few new ideas. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/104 "2006-12-13T07:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=jsc1953] The debate hinges on one line in LOTR: when accounting for all the rings of power, Gandalf says “the Nine he has gathered to himself.” Is this meant metaphorically (the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron’s will) or literally (the rings are in the Black Jewelry Box of Barad-Dur (with a Lidless Eye engraved on the lid, no doubt)). [/QUOTE] Missed this - did you read the full quote? “The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed” Since we don’t see any half-sized wraiths riding around on black ponies (not that that happens to Dwarfs), and we know that in at least one case (Dain II, IIRC), a Dwarf’s ring was forcibly taken from him under torture, we can assume the remark about the 7 is quite literal. It follows that it is literal in the case of the 9, too. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/105 "2006-12-13T11:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Missed this - did you read the full quote? “The Nine he has gathered to Himself. The Seven also, or else destroyed” Since we don’t see any half-sized wraiths riding around on black ponies (not that that happens to Dwarfs), and we know that in at least one case (Dain II, IIRC), a Dwarf’s ring was forcibly taken from him under torture, we can assume the remark about the 7 is quite literal. It follows that it is literal in the case of the 9, too. [/QUOTE] No, it was Thrain. “Balin will find no ring in Moria. Thror gave it to Thrain, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken from him with torment in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late”. – Gandalf. We’re also told somewhere that dwarves could not be reduced to wraiths. Aüle gave his creations an extra dose of bloodymindedness as he knew what Melkor was up to by then. They couldn’t be dominated either; what the Seven could do was make them greedy for gold and unsatisfied with anything if they didn’t have gold. That worked incidentally to Sauron’s benefit, but no more. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/106 "2006-12-13T12:18:07Z")
Now, the **real** question is, what would happen if a **Balrog** took a Ring of Power and slipped it onto one of his wingtips? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/107 "2006-12-13T13:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] We’re also told somewhere that dwarves could not be reduced to wraiths. Aüle gave his creations an extra dose of bloodymindedness as he knew what Melkor was up to by then. They couldn’t be dominated either; what the Seven could do was make them greedy for gold and unsatisfied with anything if they didn’t have gold. That worked incidentally to Sauron’s benefit, but no more. [/QUOTE] I know, that’s why I had the parenthetical. I wonder what happens to Elves? I know we have some indication of elf-wraiths but is there anything canonical? Hobbits I know are possible, or so Gandalf and Elrond seem to think in _Many Meetings_, but Gollum resisted incorporealization for centuries. Is it just because he didn’t wear the ring a lot? What about other thinking folks. Eagles? They’d be their own Fell Beasts, heh heh. Mmm, ent-wraiths - kinda like a scene from an _Evil Dead_ movie? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140/108 "2006-12-13T14:09:37Z")
I think we can say that it does not matter what would happen to an elf if they wore one of the seven or nine as they just would never do it. Elves had their fill of Sauron and knew full well about the rings. They weren’t having any of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-to-the-ringwraiths-after-sauron-snuffed-it/383140.md?page=5)