I prefer “The Spanish Brute.” 
Erm… I haven’t seen anything in this thread that could be considered “Spanish Empire Bashing”. Personally, I’m an ardent Imperialist and generally very Pro-Empire.
The purpose of my OP was to try and gain some insight into how Spain went from being the world’s premier Superpower Empire in the 15th and 16th century to the package tour destination for Poms that it’s become today.
The responses have been very enlightening, interesting, and educational. In fact, I’m surprised the thread has managed this many replies without someone coming in to mention all the Horrible Beastly Things™ the Spanish did.
Usually when we have a discussion about the British/French/Dutch Empires, someone shows up in the first five posts to mention how the British machine-gunned a bunch of people in India once, or how the French killed people who disagreed with them in Algeria, or how the Dutch suppressed the local language in the East Indies and treated everyone like shit. It’s actually quite refreshing to have a discussion about a large Empire and not get sidetracked into the Horrible Beastly Things™ that invariably get invoked in any discussions about Empires.
Martini Enfield, the only thing I can see that could possibly trigger RedFury’s reaction would be xtisme’s last post, what with the “full of Spaniards”, “priest-ridden” and that final “shame they didn’t get what they deserved and be blotted from the pages of history once and for all”.
RedF, that was one (1) post. One (1) opinion. Was it necessary to denounce the whole thread? (And throw in a coming-out-of-nowhere thing about cultural pride?) (I’m proud of all the good achievements by my culture; but when we do something badly I’ll call ourselves on it.)
Wait, I’m confused. Spain was Habsburg at the time, too. Why didn’t Portugal get sucked into the same conflicts as Spain?
They did. Portugal’s decline/displacement as the dominant maritime power in the Indian Ocean had a great deal to do with Spanish policies exposing it to Dutch attacks. It is also worth noting that the recently absorbed Portuguese navy was the nucleus of the famous Spanish Armada of 1588, the Spanish up to that time not having maintained a standing government fleet.
One thing that happened is that it was never seen as its own empire by either Emperor Charles V (note that the V doesn’t correspond to a single one of his Spanish counters, it’s German) or by Phillip II, the Greater Habsburgs. There was never an attempt at creating a government structure made to last. On one hand local governors were sort of “god unto themselves,” simply because of the state of communications; on the other, representative bodies of government were, during the Habsburg years, exclusively in the Peninsula and rarely called upon; Phillip V tried to stamp them out but couldn’t (he did eliminate those from the Kingdom of Aragon, by declaring it Conquered Land and imposing Castillian Law in those territories, which until then had had different laws).
Peninsular Spain was, during the Habsburgs, three separate Kingdoms with even more “parliament”-type bodies (several cities in Aragon got their own); the Overseas Territories got Castillian Law, or Castillian Law, or Castillian Law… with no possibility of representation, no possibility to get local laws that represented local needs and conditions. The Minor Habsburgs and the Borbones weren’t interested in ruling the country (although nobody can accuse, for example, Philip V of not wanting to be boss, but being the boss isn’t the same as managing); this was the time of validos who basically did what should have been the King’s job, but rarely with any kind of statesmanship.
Several Mexicans have pointed out to me that their own War of Independence was against the French. Before Napoleon, they were Spaniards. After simultaneous Wars of Independence in Spain and over the Americas, Mexico was its own independent country but not quite sure how it had got there. Note that at this same time, Navarra (the Peninsular Kingdom which Philip V hadn’t been able to “conquer,” as his right to the thrones of Spain actually came from it and not from Castilla like he would have liked, Castilla giving her King more power than Navarra did) seriously considered getting a non-Borbon King herself; the Navarrese joined the uprising against Jose I only after the exiled King and Prince had promised (falsely) to uphold our Laws.
[off topic]You know, Red, I was reading an interview with Pérez-Reverte when the movie el Capitán Alatriste came out and some of his descriptions of the men in the Tercios made me think of the troops in Irak. Mind you, his many years as a war correspondent evidently influence the soldiers he describes, so of course it makes sense that his descriptions match what I hear in documentaries![/off topic]
[more off topic]If I was any good a writer, I’d love to set a story in a world where Charles V wasn’t so hell bent on Germany and where the drive for having all the power in the hands of the King hadn’t been so strong… it could make for an interesting alternate universe, I think[/mot]
I’ve always thought this aspect interesting, a case of “don’t wish for something because you might get it.” I’ve read accounts of how early explorers in the West Indies found even primitive communities using fish-hooks made of gold, and I’m sure it soon dawned on them that they had struck the largest jackpot in history.
It’s also interesting to see how too much gold can cause inflation, just as too much paper or credit money can.
There’s four Spanish provinces which have managed to keep separate laws regarding several subjects through Trastamara, Habsburg and Borbon: Navarra, Vizcaya, Guipuzcoa and Alava. The first was a separate Kingdom until the Sisterhood Treaty of the mid XIX century
“by which the two Kingdoms become one, each keeping her own Laws and Parliament”
The other three, now comprising the Autonomous Region of Euskadi, had separate laws when they were Navarra and, when they joined León-later-Castilla (in two separate moments), did so on the condition of keeping their local legal systems.
So poor Philip V found himself having not one Parliament that he could avoid calling upon, but one Parliament that he could avoid calling upon and four Diputaciones (something like “permanent deputies of Parliament”) which would do things like respond “against the law, can be obeyed but can not be followed” to his orders (“contrafuero: se obedece pero no se cumple”). That’s after getting rid of the Consell de Cent, the Aragonese Parliament…
Spain is about as homogeneous as a paella, even legally. That makes it hard to manage, but even more so if you insist on treating her as homogeneous and if you’re not just dealing with current territories but also with the even more diverse ones overseas. It’s ostrich management tactics.
Too much ‘money’ chasing too few goods. Local artisans and crafts people couldn’t compete with the rise in inflation (if it takes a gold piece to get a loaf of bread or the raw materials, for example) so essentially their ‘wealth’ flowed right out of Spain and into the pockets of foreign workers. And since their ‘wealth’ was based entirely on being a bunch of thugs and taking it from someone else they were essentially fucked in the long run. Once they became to weak to hold onto the gravy train everyone ELSE wanted a piece of the action and took away their marbles.
Well…they WERE full of Spaniards after all. 
And they were priest ridden as well…some of the darkest chapters in Christianity were written in Spain after all. The last part was probably a bit over the top…though I consider Spain one of the truly evil nations of the world for some of the things it did in the past. Even considered wrt the OTHER Europeans they were pretty bad. I think that the way they were and how they treated other peoples has an impact on what happened to them in the long run as well though.
-XT
JRDelirious, RedFury and Mr “Spain is evil” (who happens to have Spanish ancestry) have had clashes in the past. Putting them in the same room is a cock fight waiting to happen.
King Philips frittered away Spain’s gold and silver while waging idiotic wars in Europe. The “Armada” disaster was one of many-but Philips DIDN"T CARE! he is quoted as saying" I could easily place another fleet upon the sea. if I wish it". Plus, the colonial government was corrupt-royal governors sold the prime jobs to friends under the “encomiendas” system. The royal government taxed Spanish domestic industry to death-and bought imported goods. So the decline was inevitable, and easily forseen by economists of the day (Philip refused to listen to his economic advisors). In that respect, he was a lot like GWB-forget the country and play with ideas!
This entire post is utterly and completely devoid of value. At no point in your rambling blither did you approach anything remotely like an unbiased, honest appraisal. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
You saying it wasn’t a matter of inflation? That just my bias talking? Not to much gold chasing to few products? My dishonesty? You saying that local (Spanish) artisans and crafts people weren’t driven out of business because of inflationary pricing, or was that just because I dislike Spaniards? That Spain DIDN’T have to import goods and services from other countries, or just my hate talking? That their wealth didn’t flow into foreign coffers? That their ‘wealth’ wasn’t based on stuff they grabbed from other countries?
I don’t see that I’m saying all that much different than anyone else…just telling it like it is as far as the emotional aspects. They failed because of a lot of factors…but one of those factors was their stupidity and arrogance and how they treated the native peoples they subjugated. Or is that just the hate talking? You saying this wasn’t a factor?
So, you are saying the Spanish weren’t priest ridden? That the Spanish inquisition wasn’t one of the dark chapters in the history of Christianity? That it’s only my bias and not related to the facts?
As for god having mercy on my soul…fuck him. I don’t believe in god/God or the gods anyway, but even if I did I don’t want his supposed mercy and would spit it in his/her/it’s eye if I found out I was wrong.
-XT
I’m saying that even if you happened to be right, more right than anyone else , anything you say is hopelessly tainted by obvious and deep-seated bias. It’s like Hitler trying to say something about the Jews. Even if he were absolutely totally right (Let us “Jewish people in Germany often have distinct names arising from their being given last names by the Prussian State.”), you can’t rely on his word being accurate or honest. He might be prefectly right, but it’s still a meaningless. A stopped watch is right twice a day, too.
No, I am not saying you are like Hitler, or entertain genocide, and am not Godwinizing you. I am saying that by your own words, you can’t be trusted to make a sound judgement. Let us assume, for the moment, that you are the greatest student of Spanish history in every aspect, ever, ever. The fact that you emtionalize the issue so much means that everything you write is wholly untrustworthy.
You talk about “The Spanish.” This is a horribly imprecise thing. It’s like saying that the British were evil for their horrific crimes and terrible dark deeds in the Elizabethan age, or the French in the Napoleonic period.
Some Spanish conquistadores oppressed natives terribly. Others wanted to become de facto nobles and desired farm labor. Some imported slaves and worked them to death by the hundreds of thousands. Some wanted the natives to embrace Christianity and helped them establish a new, better civilization*. All of these statements are accurate and they collectively say a reveal a lot of lot more than everything you’ve said. In fact, everything of value which you stated was noted better by someone else.
*And they did, since there wasn’t much worse than pre-colonial Aztec and Peruvian civs and even the more trivalistic ones were horrifically brutal. Which was one reason the conquistadores wanted to eliminate the old civilizations.
The Inquisition is complicated because it wasn’t all one thing, either. The Spanish state was newly-formed, had suffered centuries of warfare by invading Arab and North African Muslims (yes, Arabs attacked all the way to Spain). They had ample reason to suspect the loyalties of Muslims in the new Spanish dominions. Several events arose out of this.
Muslims were forced to convert or leave. I can’t hardly fault the Spanish for this, and the option of leaving was one more option than the Muslim powers offered. Some Muslim states were pretty tolerant in comparison, but this was a cyclical weakness. They were inevitably conquered by more aggressive and intolerate barbarians from the south, which happened several times in Spanish history. And then all bets were off.
Jews were ordered to convert, which is a less defensible action. Again, this was an action of the Spanish crown, over which Christinaity as a whole has little power.
The Pope at the time was pissed off, but recognized that they were not going to listen to him and finally ignored the issue in disgust. The Spanish Inquisition was vastly different from the institution in every other European nation. And even the Spanish Inquisition was seriously overblown by English protestant mythmakers, who used it as an excuse to vastly greater commit atrocities against Catholics in their domain. I don’t blame Queen Elizabeth for doing so; she had her reasons although they were as dubious as the Spanish. My emotional attachment to England or Catholics who died centuries ago is very small despite being of English descent and a Catholic.
Then, we have the problem of noble priests. This wasn’t a huge deal in the early Spanish era (which was the tail end of feudalism), but by the late 18th century it had become a serious impediment to economic development. Of course, so did the nobility in many European countries. In the New World, priests tended to fall into two categories: the honest reformers/missionaries, who desired the convert the natives into good Christians, and who often wished their wards well, and the unfortunate demi-exiles. These were usually failed monks or formerly-aspiring priests found they could drop the religion and get paid in the New World, and generally didn’t challenge the massacres or enslavement; real priests were often forced out of areas when their sermons did just that. One of the BIG themes of Latin American history has been the Roman Catholic priesthood against the established power bloc (or rather a three-way brawl or shifting alliances between them and Communism).
And this of course meant that there was a huge Brain Drain to the New World. Spain lost population to the New World, was exporting huge amounts of goods there (which increased inflation even more), and was really losing their best and brightest and most ambitious.
I have always loved how a certain brand of atheist can entertain unending rage and hatred toward someone they claim not to believe in.
Fair enough…I’ll bow out then. I admit, it’s an emotional subject for me…and as you said, every point I made was made by “was noted better by someone else.”
I’m not an atheist…I’m an agnostic.
-XT
Really? I’m pretty sure the United States is going to lose most of its southwestern states some time in this century, perhaps during the middle decades.
Very doubtful. As long as there are advantages to being part of the USA, people will want to be part of the USA. Once we build a wall to keep Americans in, then we would have to consider secessionists.
Yes, but how much longer will it be an advantage to be part of the USA? If the nation suffers a hyperinflation such as Germany between the wars or some other such economic disaster, states with large Hispanic majorities may decide they can do better on their own. Sure, as long as the United States stays wealthy, they’ll probably opt to remain in the Union; but our reckless mismanagement of our economy coupled with uncontrolled immigration is a recipe for catastrophe.
You may not know this but a while ago a large number of US states tried to secede from the union. It didn’t turn out well for them.
Much better reason: even with immigration, the ones who don’t want to stay can just leave. As well as even if they form a majority in some place,s it won’t be a huge one, and they’ll soon be speaking English and voting Republican while complaining about the neighbors in their surburban paradise with 2.5 kids, Honda Accord, a minivan. Proportionately speaking, the U.S. has handled many more iimgrants than we are dealing with today.