# What happened with the idea that Iraq moved its WMD to Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 19, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052 "2006-03-19T22:24:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/41 "2006-03-22T17:07:01Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > You mean like sending AirCraft to the enemy you DID use WMD’s on? IIRC, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi were all coalition members. Iran was the only alternative to having them destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/42 "2006-03-22T17:08:29Z")
> [@FWorld](#): > > IIRC, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi were all coalition members. Iran was the only alternative to having them destroyed. And then why would Syria be any different, in current context? FWIW, sending the planes to Iran was exactly the same (for Iraq) as having them be distroyed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/43 "2006-03-22T17:09:10Z")
General Sada was on The Daily Show with J. Stewart last night and was very certain that 1) the weapons existed and 2) that they were moved to Syria. He could, of course be wrong, but he came off as being very believable. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/44 "2006-03-22T17:14:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > General Sada was on The Daily Show with J. Stewart last night and was very certain that 1) the weapons existed and 2) that they were moved to Syria. He could, of course be wrong, but he came off as being very believable. This was all covered in another thread some time ago. He’s just another lying piece of shit with a book to sell (published by a crank publisher with a proven trackrecord of publishing and not retracting lies) and his ‘evidence’ is hearsay of the ‘I met a couple of guys who told me’ type. Weigh against that all the reports that saddam didn’t have any and the continued non-existence of the infrastructure to build them. Or did they load the factories onto trucks and planes too. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/45 "2006-03-22T17:15:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He certainly moved SOMETHING to Syria. There’s been hard intel (cites already posted here on these boards) that many truckloads of shit was moved secretly to Syria. Of course, we don’t know what was in them. My guess is that it was mostly loot, and the rest mostly _evidence_ of a new WMD program start up. Not nessesarily a bunch of actual WMD. Don’t you need some specialised means of transport for moving chemical/biological agents? Your guess about evidence of a new WMD start up, no offence but is that WAG or an educated guess? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/46 "2006-03-22T17:16:03Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > This was all covered in another thread some time ago. He’s just another lying piece of shit with a book to sell (published by a crank publisher with a proven trackrecord of publishing and not retracting lies) and his ‘evidence’ is hearsay of the ‘I met a couple of guys who told me’ type. Weigh against that all the reports that saddam didn’t have any and the continued non-existence of the infrastructure to build them. Or did they load the factories onto trucks and planes too. [Thread in question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356612&highlight=Sada) as breathlessly brought to our attention by Clothahump. Which speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/47 "2006-03-22T17:18:42Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > And then why would Syria be any different, in current context? FWIW, sending the planes to Iran was exactly the same (for Iraq) as having them be distroyed. Sorry if that came off wrong. He would definitely have every reason to a) use the weapons and go down in a blaze of ‘glory’ or b) move them to a neighbour, be it Syria or Iran I was just trying to put the choice in context. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/48 "2006-03-22T17:18:55Z")
> [@FWorld](#): > > Don’t you need some specialised means of transport for moving chemical/biological agents? Define need. It is VERY helpful to transport them in protected containers, but once placed in warheads, they are transported like any other munition (though with more security, normally). If you HAD to move something (in reality or your own mind), you do so by what ever means are at your disposal. Sadaam wasn’t exactly known as giving a rat’s backside about his fighting men. What was moved (or even if things WERE moved, hard ‘intel’ aside) I have no idea; but don’t take it on faith that because WE would transport things in one manner (in a ‘safe’ manner even) that others would do the same. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/49 "2006-03-22T17:20:07Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > FWIW, sending the planes to Iran was exactly the same (for Iraq) as having them be distroyed. Cite that Saddam \*sent \* them, not that the pilots defected in the expectation of his rapid defeat and their return? For that matter, cite that trucks seen going to Syria were sent by Saddam rather than his kleptocrats, or that they contained weaponry rather than loot? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/50 "2006-03-22T17:22:16Z")
> [@FWorld](#): > > Don’t you need some specialised means of transport for moving chemical/biological agents? Your guess about evidence of a new WMD start up, no offence but is that WAG or an educated guess? It’s a WAG. It could have just been his data on starting anew, I dunno. It was something, and very likely something they didn’t want us to find. But I cheerfully admit that loot is a good guess, and in fact it’s what I think was the bulk of it. It’s just that something was moved, and quite a few large trucks of somethings. \*\* Marley23\*\*- well Saddam was a complete dictator, so he certainly knew & approved. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/51 "2006-03-22T17:24:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Thread in question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356612&highlight=Sada) as breathlessly brought to our attention by Clothahump. Thanks. I hadn’t seen that. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/52 "2006-03-22T17:30:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Cite that Saddam \*sent \* them, not that the pilots defected in the expectation of his rapid defeat and their return? I didn’t even realize that was in question; there are numberous articles about it (LEXIS-NEXIS search, if you are a member I would be happy to send you the search citeria), as well as books. All of the websites I can find that have any claim as such, could be very biased; but I can’t find any arguement that he didn’t send them to Iran. > [@](#): > > For that matter, cite that trucks seen going to Syria were sent by Saddam rather than his kleptocrats, or that they contained weaponry rather than loot? I have none, I have seen none, and I haven’t agrued there were any; simply that it being ‘stupid’ doesn’t mean Sadaam didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/53 "2006-03-22T17:40:27Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > I didn’t even realize that was in question; there are numberous articles about it Then it shouldn’t be hard to find just one of them that supports your flat assertion of fact. I do hope you can find one with a little more grounding in reality than this approach, though: > [@](#): > > I can’t find any arguement that he didn’t …simply that it being ‘stupid’ doesn’t mean Sadaam didn’t do it. The Fight Against Ignorance demands slightly higher standards than that, friend. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/54 "2006-03-22T17:44:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then it shouldn’t be hard to find just one of them that supports your flat assertion of fact. And I have some, do you have a LEXIS-NEXIS account, if so I will point you in the correct direction. If you are willing to use non-news outlets as a source I can also provide them for you. I am having a hard time finding an arcived news outlet source from 1991; likely due to the fact that most of our internet news outlets didn’t exist at that time. > [@](#): > > I do hope you can find one with a little more grounding in reality than this approach, though:The Fight Against Ignorance demands slightly higher standards than that, friend. The comment was that the poster could not ‘believe Sadaam would do something so stupid’. MY comment was that he already had. I make NO claim that he sent ANYTHING to Syria; but the ‘he wouldn’t be so stupid’ claim does not fit the basic history. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/55 "2006-03-22T17:52:41Z")
How about [this](http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/2/3236/printer) Or you can order a transcript from [here](http://openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/1991-1/1991-01-29-ABC-2.html) and have Peter Jenings tell you Or [this professor](http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-beichman060403.asp) ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/56 "2006-03-22T17:54:01Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > Define need. > > \ > > If you HAD to move something (in reality or your own mind), you do so by what ever means are at your disposal. Sadaam wasn’t exactly known as giving a rat’s backside about his fighting men. I’ll put it to you this way. When Gen. Powell made his presentation to the UN before the war, he mentioned trucks that served as mobile labs, or as weapon delivery systems (believable, given how Iraq used Scuds in Desert Storm). Did anyone get the numbers off those trucks? Were they seen heading into Syria? Or was it a bold-faced lie? Because before the war, that was the only mention of trucks associated with weapons that I heard. Were there other trucks? Cite? As for the planes, [cite](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment-intro.htm) that they were moved, albeit without clear motive > [@Global Security](#): > > During Operation Desert Storm the Iraqi Air Force did not seek to challenge Coalition air forces, and nearly half the Iraqi Air Force fled to Iran to escape destruction. Why the IQAF fled to Iran is not precisely known, and the answer may never be fully known. In any case, Iraqi fighters and support aircraft fled for the border – more than 120 left. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/57 "2006-03-22T18:01:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll put it to you this way. When Gen. Powell made his presentation to the UN before the war, he mentioned trucks that served as mobile labs, or as weapon delivery systems (believable, given how Iraq used Scuds in Desert Storm). > > Did anyone get the numbers off those trucks? I have no idea what happened to those specific trucks (though getting ‘numbers’ would require very advantagous angles, weather and resolution; they would more likely be ‘tracked’, and that isn’t perfect) > [@](#): > > Were they seen heading into Syria? Or was it a bold-faced lie? Because before the war, that was the only mention of trucks associated with weapons that I heard. Were there other trucks? Cite? I have no idea. I believe the ‘trucks’ that are being discussed are of the normal shipping variety, and we don’t know what was in them. I have seen no evidence that any such convoy left, though I have heard it stated as ‘fact’. I have heard speculation as to what was in those trucks, but I don’t believe ANYONE has any facts or evidence to the contents. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/58 "2006-03-22T18:12:37Z")
**EEMan** , your third cite ignores the fact that Iraq did approve the return of inspectors before the war broke out. In fact, the inspectors were there before the bombing started, and were ordered out. [Cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,909793,00.html) , from a source that does not think the BBC hates America for its freedom. As for the actual topic of debate, Gen Powell made an assertion that there was a specific type of trucks associated with biological weapons. One would reasonably assume that if weapons were moved to Syria, it would in those particular trucks. Normal cargo trucks going between Syria and Iraq is no new thing, nor is it reason to believe that WMD were moved. Especially given the lack of evidence for _any_ WMD. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/59 "2006-03-22T18:32:49Z")
> [@FWorld](#): > > **EEMan** , your third cite ignores the fact that Iraq did approve the return of inspectors before the war broke out. In fact, the inspectors were there before the bombing started, and were ordered out. [Cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,909793,00.html) , from a source that does not think the BBC hates America for its freedom. I tried to make all of the disclaimers I could about the subjectivity of the sources, since we have no archived news sources from '91. It seems to be commonly held (including by Iran) that Saddam sent the planes. > [@](#): > > As for the actual topic of debate, Gen Powell made an assertion that there was a specific type of trucks associated with biological weapons. One would reasonably assume that if weapons were moved to Syria, it would in those particular trucks. The trucks described by Powell were for development and **not** transport. They would not have been large enough. > [@](#): > > Normal cargo trucks going between Syria and Iraq is no new thing, nor is it reason to believe that WMD were moved. Especially given the lack of evidence for _any_ WMD. We have evidence for WMD’s, just not as we expected nor in any real quantity. And again, I have no evidence (nor seen any) of the alleged convoy to Syria; but bad judgement calls by Saddam are not unheard of. (some sites of findings involoving WMD’s and Iraq [here](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/17/cf.opinion.scott.ritter/index.html), [here](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77576,00.html), [here](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/07/02/international1018EDT0516.DTL), [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24403-2004Jul2.html), etc) We have not found any weapon systems of any significance, but we HAVE found items consistant with WMD’s and their delivery. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052/60 "2006-03-22T18:43:42Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > How about [this](http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/2/3236/printer) A statement from Iran’s government itself that 22 planes had been “sent by Saddam Hussein’s regime”, without even official attribution of motive - just an offer of return of the planes but not pilots, as is customary in defection cases worldwide. > [@](#): > > Or you can order a transcript from [here](http://openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/1991-1/1991-01-29-ABC-2.html) and have Peter Jenings tell you Simple guesswork as to motives, and it was Bob Zelnick reporting anyway. > [@](#): > > Or [this professor](http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-beichman060403.asp) In a commentary for the Washington Times, based upon no more factual knowledge than you or I possess. For context, the guy called the BBC “Anti-American” right up front. :dubious: Are you ready to acknowledge that perhaps it wasn’t an order from Saddam after all? That perhaps his more-junior officers, actually being humans and not automata, just might have been able to think and act for themselves if their asses depended on it? That perhaps Iran happened to be in their flying range, and unlike the bordering coalition countries, could be flown to without serious fear of being shot down? What was actually the simplest, likeliest, most consistent with human nature, explanation for those flights? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happened-with-the-idea-that-iraq-moved-its-wmd-to-syria/349052.md?page=4)