# What Happens At The Time Of Death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592 "2003-12-17T19:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/21 "2003-12-18T07:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Maybe someone knows more about this, but I once saw a documentary about a scientist who found that he could generate NDE type experiences by electronically stimulating certain parts of the brain. He was able to generate some other experiences usually identified as “religious” such as visionary experiences of Jesus and IIRC, he was even able to cause a mental state akin to that of _samadhi_ (or Buddhist Nirvana). > Does anyone know more about this guy? I don’t remember is name but he’s done some fascinating work. \*\* I used this [cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2865009.stm) when I was explaining my “God event”, just so no one would have to research too much to explain it for me. See I like mockery too. Irony is probably the best, although I am fond of irreverance. I would have made a good atheist.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/22 "2003-12-18T07:38:10Z")
Diogenes, really, how corny and tiresome. You think you’re talking like a scientist with this “no empirical evidence” line? Bwa ha ha indeed. Mockery does not equal an argument. You may not find them convincing, but there have been many studies of NDEs that document that a person has, while having no brainwave, viewed events in the operating room and elsewhere. Yes, that’s “evidence.” You may not like it, you may not be convinced, but there it is. But apparently your definition of “empirical evidence” is “evidence that personally convinces me.” Oh, and here’s your damn cite: [http://www.iands.org/dutch\_study.html](http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html) (The link to the study itself is right near the top.) From _Lancet_, Britain’s most respected medical journal. Suck it up. You close-minded skeptics are tiresome in precisely the same way that creationists are truly to refute the evidence for evolution. If only you knew how damn silly you seem. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/23 "2003-12-18T07:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > And in any case, Diogenes is right, that’s not evidence. Well yeah, it is evidence. Subjective anecdotal evidence is not the most reliable form of evidence but it is still evidence. > [@](#): > > Maybe someone knows more about this, but I once saw a documentary about a scientist who found that he could generate NDE type experiences by electronically stimulating certain parts of the brain. He was able to generate some other experiences usually identified as “religious” such as visionary experiences of Jesus and IIRC, he was even able to cause a mental state akin to that of samadhi (or Buddhist Nirvana). I know the work you’re speaking of ([http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html)). IMO it doesn’t really tell us much. Scientists can electronically stimulate the brain into producing all sorts of sensations. They can even stimulate the eyes into seeing shapes and he skin into feeling the touch of a human hand. That doesn’t tell us anything about whether shapes and hands exist outside the brain, it just means that they can artificially stimulate the centres responsible for perceiving them ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/24 "2003-12-18T08:12:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Well yeah, it is evidence. Subjective anecdotal evidence is not the most reliable form of evidence but it is still evidence. The post didn’t cite any anecdotal evidence. The author said “of six billion people, nearly all of them (statistically speaking) are pretty sure something happens after you die.” The fact that many, perhaps most, of them believe that doesn’t add anything to its truth value. > [@](#): > > You may not find them convincing, but there have been many studies of NDEs that document that a person has, while having no brainwave, viewed events in the operating room and elsewhere. That’s not what your study says. It says that NDEs can’t be caused by anoxia because not everyone who experiences anoxia has an NDE. That doesn’t fly to me. And comments like > [@](#): > > During those follow-up interviews (2 years and 8 years later), the scientists assessed the patients’ attitudes about several key issues in life – fear of death, acceptance of others, interest in spirituality, and the like. On 13 such issues they found substantial, statistically significant differences between the NDErs and the non-NDErs. For example, NDErs had become much more empathic and accepting of others since their NDE than had the non-NDErs. And NDErs had become both more appreciative of the ordinary things of life and much less afraid of death than had the non-NDErs. Cast doubt on the practitioners to me. Attitudinal changes in people who’ve had NDEs don’t mean that there’s life after death. It means NDEs really affect many of the people who have them. And one article in one magazine, even a respected scientific one, doesn’t mean something is true. There is very little info on the page you cited. There’s a summary of the article, some Q&A with the author, and some commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/25 "2003-12-18T08:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The post didn’t cite any anecdotal evidence. …. The fact that many, perhaps most, of them believe that doesn’t add anything to its truth value. 6 billion people saying they have a reason to believe something is anecdotal evidence of a the existence of a reason to believe. It adds to the truth value simply because it is evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/26 "2003-12-18T08:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > 6 billion people saying they have a reason to believe something is anecdotal evidence of a the existence of a reason to believe. Maybe it’s anecdotal evidence of a NEED to believe. I think it’s much more likely there’s a psychological need or cultural factors involved. The fact that a lot of people think something does mean they have a reason to believe it, but it’s not ‘reason’ in the empirical sense. People have reasons to hold all kinds of opinions. > [@](#): > > It adds to the truth value simply because it is evidence. A large number of people believing something doesn’t mean it’s true, and it’s not evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/27 "2003-12-18T09:23:41Z")
Me: You may not find them convincing, but there have been many studies of NDEs that document that a person has, while having no brainwave, viewed events in the operating room and elsewhere. **Marley: That’s not what your study says. It says that NDEs can’t be caused by anoxia because not everyone who experiences anoxia has an NDE.** Read the study. They describe such transmission of information. And there are many other studies that do. In fact, it’s a very common feature of NDEs. **Marley: Attitudinal changes in people who’ve had NDEs don’t mean that there’s life after death. It means NDEs really affect many of the people who have them.** Yes, it’s a matter of interpretation. But here’s a challenge for you: try to find one cite of someone having an NDE and later saying, “It was just a hallucination.” I have never–and I have read a great deal of skeptical literature on the matter–I repeat, have NEVER seen even one single such report. Everyone who has these experiences says that they are 100% real. **Marley: And one article in one magazine, even a respected scientific one, doesn’t mean something is true. There is very little info on the page you cited. There’s a summary of the article, some Q&A with the author, and some commentary.** You’re correct. But NDE phenomena, and indeed the interpretation that they are good evidence of an afterlife, can no longer be brushed off with a smug haw haw haw, as many skeptics would like to do. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/28 "2003-12-18T11:21:10Z")
Sorry to ruin your statistics, Aeschines, but just a few days ago I posted about an experience that I had twenty years ago that changed my views on perception and spirituality and death. I will try to find it to repost it here. I believe that it would probably qualify as an anoxic experience. And even though I am a Christian, I accept that what seems to me more real than anything else I have ever experienced may have been an illusion or hallucination. No one _knows._ Evidence is not proof. In fact, proof is largely a mathematical concept. > [@](#): > > **Blake** : 6 billion people saying they have a reason to believe something is anecdotal evidence of a the existence of a reason to believe. It adds to the truth value simply because it is evidence. Probably 100% of the population of the earth believed that the earth was flat. All of them were wrong. The number of people who believe in something may not reflect the truth at all. **Lissa** : I saw the program that you referred to. One thing that I like about Dr. Persinger’s research is that he does not fall into the trap of thinking of religious or spiritual perceptions as a “disorder.” He doesn’t pass judgment on it at all. In other words, he is going to be certain that he doesn’t become the blind man who accused the sighted man of having something wrong with his brain, in essence. It was a fascinating program. I think I have it on tape somewhere. **IWLN** , judging from your link, you may also be willing to admit that your “God experience” may have been an hallucination. Am I mistaken? I haven’t read the description of your experience, but I can understand why it gets abbreviated to “my God experience.” These are sort of difficult to convey, aren’t they? It is nice to see someone else mention one here. I’ve described mine twice and everyone sort of tiptoes around it. 🙂 I refer to it as a “Unity Experience.” **Kalhoun** , I’m sorry that you are losing him. Another thing the dying sometimes like to talk about are their childhoods. I don’t think the experience that I had would be of any help. Another thing, if you could bring yourself to do it, is to read aloud the 23rd Psalm. Hold his hand. It may seem strange to you, but it is such a basic comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/29 "2003-12-18T11:41:07Z")
I went back to my post about my Unity Experience and found that no one had tiptoed around it at all. Y’all had galloped around it at breakneck speed to a more interesting discussion! At any rate, I will post it again here. From the 3rd page at this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228077&perpage=50&pagenumber=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228077&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) > [@](#): > > Zoe: This experience happened to me (and to many, many other people) and although it was nothing like what I had thought heaven would be, it has changed my expectation forever. I will describe it as if it were happening to you. > > You are standing alone outside. Very suddenly an overwhelming sense of well-being floods over you. You look to the sky and somehow the movement of the clouds against the sun confirm for you that you are at the very center of yourself. > > The sensation of joy increases. Your mind lingers briefly on earthly concerns – your marriage, your family, your home – and although they seem sweetly dear to you, they also seem basically of no lasting consequence. > > Colors about you begin to intensify and shimmer. Everything seems to be happening in a rose gold light. > > You feel the edges of your own physical body first expand to embrace everything and then disappear so that you are everything all at once. You become the point at which the infinitely large and the infinitely small are the same. And that point is a perfect state of bliss. You want for nothing. You desire nothing. > > You become aware of an eye in the sky and you are that eye. It is open. You know that if the eye closes, “you” will disappear forever and that that will be a fine thing. > > You instinctively know that this timelessness is in keeping with all that is sacred. You are One with all of it. > > Trying to describe the experience is generally frustrating. I can’t convey the depth of feeling or the physical aspects of it. When I had this experience, I didn’t realize that others had also experienced the same. > > I don’t think that I am “special” because it happened to me. I think it can happen to anyone at any time. > > If paradise is better than that, I cannot fathom it. **IWLN** , was your experience similar in any way? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/30 "2003-12-18T12:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > **IWLN** , judging from your link, you may also be willing to admit that your “God experience” may have been an hallucination. Am I mistaken? > > I haven’t read the description of your experience, but I can understand why it gets abbreviated to “my God experience.” These are sort of difficult to convey, aren’t they? It is nice to see someone else mention one here. I’ve described mine twice and everyone sort of tiptoes around it. 🙂 I refer to it as a “Unity Experience.” No. My experience definitely was not a hallucination. I had referred to the experience during some posts, trying to explain why using Occam’s Razor wasn’t appropriate. Wasn’t intending on sharing, but kind of backed myself into a corner. I posted the cite kind of as a snotty way to say, I know you’re going to come up with “logical explanations”. The funny part of that is I had never even told most of my own family. My daughter read about it on SDMB with about 5,000 of my closest strangers. Oops. People were really nicer about it than I expected. That’s not to say they didn’t think I was delusional, but I did expect that.😉 My experience is about a third of the way down the page sent to **blowero**. After I described it and thought about it, I think I interpreted slightly different than I do now, but it will give you the [idea.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=220146&perpage=50&pagenumber=8) ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/31 "2003-12-18T17:06:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > \*\*Oh, let’s cut the shinola, people. The same old brushing off of the **mountains** of evidence for the afterlife. > > “No empirical evidence whatsoever,” etc. This kind of rhetoric is just irresponsible and disingenuous. > > You want your cite? Victor Zammit has taken the trouble to put it ALL together. An amazing web site with plenty of documented references. > > It’s proved, people. Face that fact. > > [www.victorzammit.com](http://www.victorzammit.com)\*\* Have you met **Lekatt**? You might want to check past threads. Especially the one from the first third of this year (that’s how long it lasted). There is no repeated, repeatable evidence, and bringing up Zammit (Dammit!) is guaranteeing a lot of rebuttal and rebuking. The guy’s website is inflammatory and just re-presents the same tired old - often refuted - claims. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/32 "2003-12-18T17:33:48Z")
Thank you all for your responses. We are going over to the in-laws to discuss his funeral so we’re prepared when the time comes, but we won’t be discussing it in front of him. I doubt I’ll be able to discuss any of this with him. My MIL is very protective and is denying him active participation in the planing of his death. ☹ I hope people will continue to post to this thread. The responses are very interesting, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/33 "2003-12-18T17:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*My father-in-law is in his last days, according to all the leaflets and articles I’ve read about dying. He was diagnosed with cancer roughly 10 months ago. He hasn’t complained of pain, but he’s stopped almost all eating and drinking, is at times uncommunicative, is physically rigid, confused, and hallucinating at times. I expect to see erratic breathing patterns and the like any time. > > I don’t believe there is a soul, but my in-laws do, and if he says anything about it, I’d like to have a frame of reference to work with. > > If the body has a soul, what is the process for the soul leaving the body and going to heaven? Does an agent of god remove the soul and escort it to heaven? Does the soul float away from the body and find its way to heaven? Is judgement already performed or do you face that when you get “there”? Will he join his dead children or his parents? Will it be like Earth? > > Thank you for your input. \*\* During the last hours of life the consciousness (soul) may waiver in and out of the body. Your father-in-law may talk of seeing things and people, like old friends or loved ones come to escort him home, he may see beautiful landscapes or magnificent buildings. Usually during this time if he can still communicate, he will give you some instructions about life. Smiling and peacefulness is common at this time. My mother talked about seeing her mother (deceased) and talking to her. She told me she would be going on and to take care of her grandchildren, it was a sad time. Yes, most definately there is life after death. Tons of evidence for it in Near Death Experiences. I volunteered for hospice work after my NDE and found it to be fulfilling service. Hold his hand, listen to him, and ask questions if you want, death is a great moment of learning. There are more than 150 death experiences on my site if you want to read about them. There is scientific evidence to show NDEs are not caused by the physical body. It is a very important and relavant study. Be in the moment. [http://ndeweb.com](http://ndeweb.com) Love ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/34 "2003-12-18T18:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > I would have made a good atheist.😉 It’s not too late - join us…Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! (evil laugh) We’re having a recruitment drive this month; if I convert 6 more people to atheism, I win a trip to Bermuda.😉 ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/35 "2003-12-18T19:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*It’s not too late - join us…Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! (evil laugh) > > We’re having a recruitment drive this month; if I convert 6 more people to atheism, I win a trip to Bermuda.😉 \*\* You mean you still believe in Bermuda? Oh Blowero, join the abermudists won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/36 "2003-12-18T19:43:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*It’s not too late - join us…Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! (evil laugh) > > We’re having a recruitment drive this month; if I convert 6 more people to atheism, I win a trip to Bermuda.😉 \*\* Hmmm…let me think. It’s really tempting…ah… **NO!** I’ve already been told I have to leave G-d behind. He **hates** it when I do that. Tell you what. I’ll pay for your trip to Bermuda if you just **COME IN TO THE LIGHT(ECHO, ECHO, ECHO)**😛 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/37 "2003-12-18T19:51:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > I’ll pay for your trip to Bermuda if you just **COME IN TO THE LIGHT(ECHO, ECHO, ECHO)**😛 \*\* Nooooooooo! Light destroys atheists. We must lurk forever in the shadows.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/38 "2003-12-19T00:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Probably 100% of the population of the earth believed that the earth was flat. All of them were wrong. The number of people who believe in something may not reflect the truth at all. Then it’s a good thing that no one suggested it did. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/39 "2003-12-19T02:19:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Then it’s a good thing that no one suggested it did. Well, actually, _you_ did. > [@](#): > > **6 billion people saying they have a reason to believe something is anecdotal evidence of a the existence of a reason to believe**. Fair enough, it suggests that a lot of people have reasons to believe something, but not necessarily the _same_ reason. And that still doesn’t mean that what they believe in is correct. > [@](#): > > **It adds to the _truth value_ simply because it is evidence**. But only anecdotal. Not experimental. Big difference. Aeschines said this: > [@](#): > > **…try to find one cite of someone having an NDE and later saying, “It was just a hallucination.” I have never–and I have read a great deal of skeptical literature on the matter–I repeat, have NEVER seen even one single such report. Everyone who has these experiences says that they are 100% real** One implication of that statement is that because “everyone” who has an NDE says they’re real, that’s good enough for proof. Wrong. It may be a reason to do more research, but by itself it means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/40 "2003-12-19T02:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **By Aeschines** > Everyone who has these experiences says that they are 100% real There’s a difference between having a experience and deducing the cause of the experience. One weak implication the non-skeptics in this thread make is that any “non-conventional” experience is a result of supernatural forces. Not necessary. Disclaimer: I’m not advocating the following, but present it as rebuttal. Plenty of people experience NDEs without being close to death. They use certain drugs in certain doses like Ketamine - 3mg/kg of body weight (sends you into the “K-hole”) or Dimethyl-tryptamine or even LSD at sufficient doses (like 600+ micrograms). Users report “transcendental out-of-body spiritual” experiences. And these drugs aren’t doing anything supernatural. My guess is when the brain’s dying, the neural circuits responsible for self-coherence and higher-level cognition start to break down and one goes through these same kinds of experiences (probably of greater intensity). The input in these experiences has more to do with one’s (often unconscious) preconceptions and notions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592.md?page=3)