# What Happens At The Time Of Death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592 "2003-12-17T19:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/61 "2003-12-19T08:40:34Z")
I hope I wasn’t _that_ bad.:eek: Can I take the Jesus Christ comparison back. I got carried away.☹ ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/62 "2003-12-19T08:40:41Z")
_Aeschines_: **But people insist that these experiences are as “real” as everyday experience. Hence, they are unlike dreams. I too have had very realistic dreams; there is always the mark of “dream” on them, however.** Never woken up in the middle of the night due to a dream? I have. During such dreams, you really don’t realize that it is a dream. About being ‘real’: Perception of reality is different from “objective” reality. Ever heard of phantom limbs? In a patient with phantom left arm, you can stroke the left cheek and part of lips and the person will “feel” their amputed limb being stroked. Or the experiment where you stroke a friend’s nose while blindfolded, have him just touch you nose and you ‘feel’ that you are stroking your own nose\*. And these perceptions are real, in that they really do occur. But, the perception isn’t ‘real’ in the colloquial sense. There’s no limb present. It’s just encroachment in the Penfield homunculus of the nerves from the amputed hand onto the adjoining somatotopic space of the facial nerves. Those NDEs could very well be real, in the sense that the person did “feel” those images and sounds, but it’s a stretch yet to ascribe them to external input. \*These experiments are described in this [book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688152473/102-1874718-9429754). ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/63 "2003-12-19T08:43:34Z")
**IWLN: You know, nobody is telling you not to believe all the anecdotal crap you want to.** “Crap” is a pejorative hardly useful in this kind of debate. **Just stop trying to assert that it’s empirical. Trust me, it won’t work here. I tried.** Some stuff is empirical, some ain’t. **They were right. I couldn’t prove a damn thing.** Maybe not, but others have. **Now you’re just making assertions about the people who have the right to not accept anything without real evidence.** I cited the _Lancet_ article, which contains “real” evidence. **Not stonewalling, just being rational.** Close-minded skeptics stonewall: they simply refuse to take any evidence contrary to their position seriously. It’s just like the creationists. **"Chum" is incredibly well educated. Attacking doesn’t make your cause look stronger.** Sure, that’s true. It’s best just to ignore idiots, not attack them personally. Why lose one’s cool? **Empirical evidence is not something just once personally observed.** No shit, Sherlock. **If I look in the mirror and believe that I see Jesus Christ staring back at me. Hey, that doesn’t really make me JC.** Hey, you know what’s cool? To take what someone says seriously and try to engage with that content. That makes for a good debate. Just to ignore what someone is actually posting and respond with canned rhetoric is useless. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/64 "2003-12-19T08:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > \*\*Diogenes, > > **Empirical evidence is that which observable. It’s simple. It’s also a fact that no NDE has ever been observed.** > > Yeah, and no dinosaur has ever been observed. I guess they never existed. No proof! The creationists must be right!\*\* Dinosaurs can be inferred from evidence which _is_ observable. “souls” cannot. > [@](#): > > \*\*“Wait!” you say, “fossils!” How do we explain them? Indeed. > > And how do we explain those aspects of NDEs that we _can_ observe?\*\* And what would those observable aspects be? (\*hint, there aren’t any). > [@](#): > > **BTW, NDEs are “observed” by the people who experience them. No, it’s not objective, empirical evidence,** Right, so we agree that there is no proof of NDEs. The fact that people share similar hallucinations does not prove that there is any physical reality to them. > [@](#): > > \*\*but you’re assertion that > > “A bunch of stroke victims burbling about tunnels doesn’t prove dick” > > proves that you are not taking the base data seriously. For that reason, I don’t take you seriously. This will be the final time I respond to your childish posing. G’bye. \*\* There is no “base data” and there is absolutely no reason that I should take it seriously. If you want to take your ball and go home, that’s your prerogative. I’m sorry you couldn’t defend your argument. Happy trails. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/65 "2003-12-19T08:53:36Z")
I like Gyan because he actually _argues_: **Never woken up in the middle of the night due to a dream? I have. During such dreams, you really don’t realize that it is a dream.** Point taken, but I’ve never had a dream that, later on, I was not able to identify as a dream. Atheists and skeptics also have NDEs. It would quite natural for them to come back and say, “Hah! were right.” The funny thing is that… they don’t. There must be something quite special about NDEs to make _everyone_ believe that they’re reality! Now, ILWN says that she experienced something and now she’s not sure that it was real. There is ambivalence there. Very well. A counterexample. I would expect there to be more, and I’m surprised there are not, despite the fact that I believe NDEs do more or less prove the existence of an afterlife. **About being ‘real’: Perception of reality is different from “objective” reality.** I wouldn’t state this with such confidence, inasmuch as this one of those big philosophical questions that can’t be solved with a single sentence. _Ever heard of phantom limbs? In a patient with phantom left arm, you can stroke the left cheek and part of lips and the person will “feel” their amputed limb being stroked. Or the experiment where you stroke a friend’s nose while blindfolded, have him just touch you nose and you ‘feel’ that you are stroking your own nose. And these perceptions are real, in that they really do occur. But, the perception isn’t ‘real’ in the colloquial sense. There’s no limb present. It’s just encroachment in the Penfield homunculus of the nerves from the amputed hand onto the adjoining somatotopic space of the facial nerves. Those NDEs could very well be real, in the sense that the person did “feel” those images and sounds, but it’s a stretch yet to ascribe them to external input._\* Yes, sure. But people don’t believe their phantom limbs are “real,” and you can tell that it’s not really your nose (or the other person’s). When you wake up from a dream, at some point you say, A dream. Not so with NDEs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/66 "2003-12-19T08:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*I hope I wasn’t _that_ bad.:eek: Can I take the Jesus Christ comparison back. I got carried away.☹ \*\* You weren’t even close to this bad. You listened to what others were saying, you engaged with them, you thought about things and you did the hardest thing of all, you reevaluted your belief system. You also stuck around for page after page. This guy looks like he’s ready to quit already. I’m not even the toughest “skeptic” on the board on these topics (I’m better at religious topics). It’s not going to get any easier for him if he does stick around. It’s kind of fun to see someone _else_ in the wringer isn’t it? I don’t think he’s going to come out as well as you did. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/67 "2003-12-19T08:59:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > “Crap” is a pejorative hardly useful in this kind of debate. Neither is “chum”, “childish”, etc. > [@](#): > > Some stuff is empirical, some ain’t. Go back for those of us that are just “slow” and tell me one thing about what you’re trying to assert is empirical. How bout the “vibrations”, or anything to do withe NDE’s, the soul. You pick. > [@](#): > > Maybe not, but others have. Not with anything you’ve shown us so far. > [@](#): > > I cited the _Lancet_ article, which contains “real” evidence. Empirical evidence? Give one example. Just one. We’re not seeing what you are. > [@](#): > > Close-minded skeptics stonewall: they simply refuse to take any evidence contrary to their position seriously. It’s just like the creationists. When they get evidence, I’m sure they will. > [@](#): > > Sure, that’s true. It’s best just to ignore idiots, not attack them personally. Why lose one’s cool? It’s best to prove your point with real evidence. > [@](#): > > No shit, Sherlock. Sorry. It didn’t appear that you knew that. > [@](#): > > Hey, you know what’s cool? To take what someone says seriously and try to engage with that content. That makes for a good debate. Just to ignore what someone is actually posting and respond with canned rhetoric is useless. Good debate in this setting is backed up with facts, not “stories”. If 10,000 said they were Christ, would you think there was some sort of proof or weight because of the frequency of the event? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/68 "2003-12-19T09:05:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > \*\*I like Gyan because he actually _argues_: > > **Never woken up in the middle of the night due to a dream? I have. During such dreams, you really don’t realize that it is a dream.** > > Point taken, but I’ve never had a dream that, later on, I was not able to identify as a dream. Atheists and skeptics also have NDEs. It would quite natural for them to come back and say, “Hah! were right.” The funny thing is that… they don’t. There must be something quite special about NDEs to make _everyone_ believe that they’re reality! > > Now, ILWN says that she experienced something and now she’s not sure that it was real. There is ambivalence there. Very well. A counterexample. I would expect there to be more, and I’m surprised there are not, despite the fact that I believe NDEs do more or less prove the existence of an afterlife. > > **About being ‘real’: Perception of reality is different from “objective” reality.** > > I wouldn’t state this with such confidence, inasmuch as this one of those big philosophical questions that can’t be solved with a single sentence. > > _Ever heard of phantom limbs? In a patient with phantom left arm, you can stroke the left cheek and part of lips and the person will “feel” their amputed limb being stroked. Or the experiment where you stroke a friend’s nose while blindfolded, have him just touch you nose and you ‘feel’ that you are stroking your own nose. And these perceptions are real, in that they really do occur. But, the perception isn’t ‘real’ in the colloquial sense. There’s no limb present. It’s just encroachment in the Penfield homunculus of the nerves from the amputed hand onto the adjoining somatotopic space of the facial nerves. > Those NDEs could very well be real, in the sense that the person did “feel” those images and sounds, but it’s a stretch yet to ascribe them to external input._\* > > Yes, sure. But people don’t believe their phantom limbs are “real,” and you can tell that it’s not really your nose (or the other person’s). When you wake up from a dream, at some point you say, A dream. Not so with NDEs. \*\* It seems to me like you’re trying to convince us that people truly experience episodes like the classic NDE, that is that they really have these sensations and that the experience seems real. I don’t doubt that for a second. I believe that people _think_ that they’re leaving their bodies and that they _think_ that it’s real. The problem is that proving people have this experience is not the same as proving that a “soul” leaves the body. The assertion that it does is especially hamstrung by the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of a soul in the first place. Prove a soul exists. Then we can talk about whether they ever leave the body. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/69 "2003-12-19T09:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > Now, ILWN says that she experienced something and now she’s not sure that it was real. There is ambivalence there. I actually am sure that what I experienced was real. But, how can I forget I’m determining that with the same mind that could have also produced that experience without G-d’s involvement. There is definitely ambivilance there. It was emotionally hard to come by. I’m actually kind of proud of it. I’m sure G-d doesn’t mind if I accept the fact that _I’m_ human and subject to possible errors in judgement or could fail to perceive something correctly. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/70 "2003-12-19T09:21:14Z")
**Aeschines** For the record, I would _love_ to see NDE’s somehow proved. I believe we have a soul and maybe NDE’s would help with that assertion. I don’t even dis-believe NDE’s. But I am not so desperate for validation that I would grab on to evidence that doesn’t exist. I am a skeptic, but not because I don’t want it to be true, only because, so far, there is no proof. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/71 "2003-12-19T10:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > You weren’t even close to this bad. You listened to what others were saying, you engaged with them, you thought about things and you did the hardest thing of all, you reevaluted your belief system. I look back at my original arguments when I need a good laugh. Still kind of makes me cringe, but the irony factor is fun. I’m still not 100% grateful for the hit my belief system took. > [@](#): > > You also stuck around for page after page. This guy looks like he’s ready to quit already. I’m not even the toughest “skeptic” on the board on these topics (I’m better at religious topics). It’s not going to get any easier for him if he does stick around. I’m not sure why I stuck around, except the urge to flee, intact, was so strong, I needed to find out why. I’m still working on that one. > [@](#): > > It’s kind of fun to see someone _else_ in the wringer isn’t it? I don’t think he’s going to come out as well as you did. Debating this topic is easy for me. **Aeschines** could learn a lot here about how to make his case sound at least somewhat credible, actually more believable; instead of trying to prove the improvable. When it comes to debating religious topics, especially against Christians, it’s really hard on me. I have baggage.☹ I can think of twice that actually still haunt me. I don’t think I was wrong, but somehow felt like I was a traitor. I promised myself I wasn’t going to do it anymore, but I probably will. At least until it doesn’t hurt anymore. **Aeschines** , I hope you’re still listening. There are people here in GD that present their beliefs so humbly and eloquently, that even though I disagree with them; I respect them too much to even try and debate the issue. Arrogance without fact is always begging for argument. You can learn a lot here and still believe what you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/72 "2003-12-19T11:27:36Z")
OK, here we go. First the link to the actual _Lancet_ study: [http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf](http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf) The doctor writing the study observed the following during the course of the research: “Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient… The moment he sees me he says: ‘Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are… Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth’. I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR.” Feel free to read the passage in context by means of the link above. Now, here’s the argument. The man was incapable of seeing what he saw. The facts were verified by the doctor. The man therefore was conscious while he “was in deep coma.” Ergo, consciousness is possible even when the brain is not functioning. This argument combines two observations (“epirical” data) with deductive logic. Observation 1: The man was in a deep coma while the medical personnel handled his dentures. Observation 2: The man correctly identifed where his dentures were located despite being unconscious at the time. Deduction: The man actually observed the handling of his dentures, as he said he did. Interpretation: The brain is not required for consciousness to exist. This and many similar cases prove that consciousness is possible without a functioning brain. If this evidence does not convince you, would you mind telling me, specifically, what kind of evidence or experiment would do so? ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/73 "2003-12-19T11:43:33Z")
\*Originally posted by Aeschines \* **Point taken, but I’ve never had a dream that, later on, I was not able to identify as a dream.** One word: circumstances. You go to bed every night. You have good dreams, nightmares, spiritual dreams…etc Then you eventually wakeup. The pre and post-experience events allow you to clearly demarcate the experiences in between as a ‘dream’. NDEs by definition occur in unusual and rare circumstances. Circumstances where your body is not in its normal functioning state and the strangeness disorients the person’s conscious grasp of reality. NDEs could very well be just strong hallucinations, but the aura of the surrounding events aided by their pre-existing beliefs and desires could make the person confer it a ‘special status’. **I believe NDEs do more or less prove the existence of an afterlife.** I have to ask you: do you want there to be an afterlife? \*\* I wouldn’t state this with such confidence, inasmuch as this one of those big philosophical questions that can’t be solved with a single sentence. \*\* I stated it with a single sentence, but the mountains of research indicates that it is so. Look up any number of [optical](http://www.optillusions.com/) illusions or try this [color](http://www-bcs.mit.edu/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html) illusion. Consult this [book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0838577016/qid=1071832565//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-3841344-9903954?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)’s part five (especially Ch. 25) \*\* But people don’t believe their phantom limbs are “real,” and you can tell that it’s not really your nose (or the other person’s). \*\* That’s because knowledge and other senses belie the first. Imagine a blind person who’s told his arms are paralysed, but are in reality amputated. And he has phantom limbs. Whenever someone will touch parts of his face, he will feel touch in his “arms”. Ignore proprioception for now. Unless someone corrects him, how will he know? **The doctor writing the study observed the following during the course of the research** Incorrect. It was a nurse, not the study’s author. Who diagnosed the coma? Ketamine can induce complete body paralysis where you aren’t in a coma (although you are sensorily detached). How would the nurse tell the difference? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/74 "2003-12-19T12:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > Now, here’s the argument. I’ll start out by saying these type of events do impress and invite further study, but they do not give you any sort of testable conclusion. Your conclusion could be true or might not be. How do you intend to prove why this happened, not just what happened? > [@](#): > > The man was incapable of seeing what he saw. This is an opinion. There is no proof that he was incapable. There _is_ possibly some evidence of being able to hear, to have some level of function has been provided anecdotaly. > [@](#): > > The facts were verified by the doctor. As far as they were aware, yes he was unconscious. When they revived him, he may have briefly seen the cart and remembered hearing the nurses comment. > [@](#): > > The man therefore was conscious while he “was in deep coma.” Part of him was or he’s remembering hearing the nurse say what she was going to do. > [@](#): > > Ergo, consciousness is possible even when the brain is not functioning. There is no such thing as a non-functioning brain other than complete and total death and even then there can be a measurable amount of brain function for a short while. The brain actually has function while you’re in a coma, otherwise you would be dead. If it ceased completely to function during the CPR, it would immediately begin to die. CPR will not work for a person who is brain dead. Since you brain controls your heart function. A coma is not death. > [@](#): > > This argument combines two observations (“epirical” data) with deductive logic. Observation 1: The man was in a deep coma while the medical personnel handled his dentures. Observation 2: The man correctly identifed where his dentures were located despite being unconscious at the time. Deduction: The man actually observed the handling of his dentures, as he said he did. Interpretation: The brain is not required for consciousness to exist. The brain is required to support the body, even unconcious. Consciousness has many levels. Are you saying they hear with their spirit or soul and there is no brain activity involved? > [@](#): > > This and many similar cases prove that consciousness is possible without a functioning brain. Not being able to explain how something could happen is not proof that a theory is correct. It is only proof for that individual event that he had a level of awareness that doesn’t seem consistent with unconsciousness. It does not prove a soul or seperate existence. This type of event has been reported a lot, but takes very few factual variables into account and it’s status as an anecdotal story remains. > [@](#): > > If this evidence does not convince you, would you mind telling me, specifically, what kind of evidence or experiment would do so? Something repeatable in a controlled non-biased study. That is how facts come about. If you can’t prove “why” something like this _really_ happens, you can still believe it; you just can’t turn it into proven fact. You only prove that this type of thing happens and nobody denies that. I have never heard anyone prove **why**. You can really skip all of my other comments, because they are speculation, just like yours are. Just prove **why** it happens without bias. Make your conclusion factual. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/75 "2003-12-19T17:54:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > **This and many similar cases prove that consciousness is possible without a functioning brain.** Looks like **yguy** isn’t the only one who likes to use the “consciousness can exist without the brain” line. Anyway, as **IWLN** said, people in a coma _do_ have a functioning brain, and thus your above comment, if it is based on this particular anecdote, is in error. Really, I think that **IWLN** already summed up everything that I would have said in my response (and I tend not to jump into the middle of ongoing debate anyway), so I’ll be brief: The most important thing to consider is, even if the person in the coma _had_ been brain dead, it tells us nothing about the existence of any sort of afterlife. Even _if_ we assume that there is some sort of “soul” that exists after death, there is nothing to say that it doesn’t dissipate, or “evaporate” within minutes of the brain’s ceasing to function. In other words, even _if_ you had 100% solid evidence that consciousness can exist without the brain, that still tells us absolutely _nothing_ about any sort of afterlife. Of course, nothing in your cite points conclusively to there being anything like a soul. Indeed, there are alternate explanations that make much more sense. So your argument is doubly flawed: It assumes too much from one anecdote, and it uses that assumption to reach a conclusion that said assumption is not capable of supporting. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/76 "2003-12-19T18:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Zoe IWLN, the link to the earlier discussion is appreciated and a similarity in reaction is noted. I think I will just make a copy of your exchange with blowero there, stick it on the frig and avoid any future discussions with my husband on this very topic. We can just point and nod and know that we have had an argument. > > My husband believes me. Or he is a wise man, who lies well. This was before we met. When I told him about it, he told me I was very lucky. Well this is really off-topic, but I notice that my name keeps coming up. I’m not really sure what point Zoe is trying to make, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t denigrate IWLN in any way for sharing her experience. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/77 "2003-12-19T22:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*Well this is really off-topic, but I notice that my name keeps coming up. I’m not really sure what point Zoe is trying to make, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t denigrate IWLN in any way for sharing her experience. \*\* Hey, we weren’t really talking _about_ you. Just using you as a “landmark” to reference a post. No denigration involved. Other than the time you had raw meet at that weekly atheis meeting, you have been great.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/78 "2003-12-20T03:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aeschines \* > \*\*OK, here we go. First the link to the actual _Lancet_ study: > > [http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf](http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf) > > The doctor writing the study observed the following during the course of the research: > > “Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient… The moment he sees me he says: ‘Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are… Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth’. I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR.” > > Feel free to read the passage in context by means of the link above. > > Now, here’s the argument. > > The man was incapable of seeing what he saw. > The facts were verified by the doctor. > The man therefore was conscious while he “was in deep coma.” > Ergo, consciousness is possible even when the brain is not functioning. > > This argument combines two observations (“epirical” data) with deductive logic. Observation 1: The man was in a deep coma while the medical personnel handled his dentures. Observation 2: The man correctly identifed where his dentures were located despite being unconscious at the time. Deduction: The man actually observed the handling of his dentures, as he said he did. Interpretation: The brain is not required for consciousness to exist. > > This and many similar cases prove that consciousness is possible without a functioning brain. > > If this evidence does not convince you, would you mind telling me, specifically, what kind of evidence or experiment would do so? \*\* I don’t think there would be any evidence convincing enough to suit these skeptics. But there are hundreds of this kind of NDE in print, and they do convince the general public, as they should. [http://ndeweb.com/FAQz05.htm](http://ndeweb.com/FAQz05.htm) Love ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/79 "2003-12-20T04:17:01Z")
Us dirty skeptics and our insistence on physical evidence. Why are we so close minded? We should just accept any and every wild-ass, crackpot supernatural claim we ever hear. That’s what we would do if we were better people. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592/80 "2003-12-20T07:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*Hey, we weren’t really talking _about_ you. Just using you as a “landmark” to reference a post. No denigration involved. Other than the time you had raw meet at that weekly atheis meeting, you have been great.🆒 \*\* Oh, good. You’re pretty cool in my book; I didn’t want you to think of me as “that guy who was mean to me in the atheism thread”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-at-the-time-of-death/219592.md?page=5)