# What happens if both pilots die at the same time ? (after 9/11) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750 "2014-10-19T02:42:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/21 "2014-10-19T15:10:25Z")
> [@exile3D](#): > > I see > > are the doors made of stronger material after 9/11? Do you think the crew could even break into the cockpit somehow? Yes. The idea is to make sure terrorists can’t break into the cockpit. Of course, there’s no reason to think this would have made a difference on 9/11, but that’s why they call it “security theater.” ---
**Author:** ![exile3D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@exile3D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/exile3D)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/22 "2014-10-19T15:31:53Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Yes. The idea is to make sure terrorists can’t break into the cockpit. Of course, there’s no reason to think this would have made a difference on 9/11, but that’s why they call it “security theater.” What about sky marshalls? they carry weapons or? they could shoot the door ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/23 "2014-10-19T16:00:00Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Yes. The idea is to make sure terrorists can’t break into the cockpit. Of course, there’s no reason to think this would have made a difference on 9/11, but that’s why they call it “security theater.” The biggest vault door in the world can be broken through - in time. I’m sure airliner flight deck doors are built to standards that would keep anyone from getting through them in the amount of time it would take to execute emergency action - landing at the nearest airport, even ditching the plane as safely as possible. But given an hour and no resistance - e.g., passengers trying to kill you - I’d bet on a relay of stronger passengers being able to batter through the bulkhead or door. But they’d have to know the situation, and simple silence from the flight crew on a night flight might be less than absolute… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/24 "2014-10-19T20:52:42Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > If it were possible, wouldn’t it make sense to enable some ground people to send a signal that would unlock the cabin doors? Unfortunately, that would only be of any help if there was some qualified pilot on board who could land the plane or who could do something to help. It’s got to be extremely doubtful that unlocking the cabin door remotely could ever be of any help. Seems like this could be easiy used by terrorists. “Send the signal to unlock the cabin door on flight #123 or we’ll start shooting the passengers one after another.” And that’s assuming that the terrorists haven’t brought a transmitter disguised as a cell phone so they can transmit the signal themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/25 "2014-10-19T21:22:23Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Seems like this could be easiy used by terrorists. “Send the signal to unlock the cabin door on flight #123 or we’ll start shooting the passengers one after another.” I can’t see any difference between flight crew and ground control on that one. Slitting a few passenger throats would have more effect on the flight crew than some remote ground administrator. Even though the correct response in both cases is, “Slash away. We’ll be on the ground in a few minutes and there will be some folks armed with more than box cutters who will want some brief words with you.” Or a polite, surrender-sounding request for all passengers to remain in their seats and buckled up… and a hard roll to left and right a few times. I wonder if that’s in the playbook. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/26 "2014-10-19T21:34:07Z")
Sadly, this question is one of those where (for the most part) the folks who know can’t / won’t comment and that leaves the floor to those who don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/27 "2014-10-19T21:36:31Z")
Everyone knows there is no way to open the locked cockpit door from outside, right? No secret “emergency procedure” exists (which makes sense, because it would be impossible to keep it from becoming common knowledge). Now read [this description](http://avherald.com/h?article=476eba0f&opt=0) of a recent incident on an Air New Zealand flight: > [@](#): > > Upon the first officer’s return to the cockpit the captain did not open the cockpit door, three requests to enter the cockpit remained unresponded. **The first officer finally opened the cockpit door by the emergency procedure** about 2 minutes later and returned to the cockpit. The aircraft continued to Auckland for a safe landing. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/28 "2014-10-19T21:49:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > … > Also most planes have satellite phones outside the cockpit … Huh. Didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Fishtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed655f/32.png) [@Fishtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fishtar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/29 "2014-10-19T22:07:23Z")
Seems a decent script for a sitcom. Pilots leave cockpit to deal with Kramer and accidently lock themselves out. Or maybe Open Water III. As far as emergency procedures, I imagine that depends on both the airline and the aircraft. How poison proof are those doors? Say on an older 737? ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/30 "2014-10-21T15:01:45Z")
Like everything else that is regulated, the requirements for the reinforced cockpit door are available to anyone. They look designed to defeat or delay one or two people, not necessarily an entire airplane of folks who want to get through the door. I am trying to find out what the doors are made of and have seen remarks that they are Kevlar, hardened steel, or a light weight ceramic/glass armor. No cites, though. Not sure how to convert 300 joules into the size and speed of a running person or using one of those drink carts as a battering ram. > [@](#): > > [http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/129.28](http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/129.28.C) > (2) The door must resist forcible intrusion by unauthorized persons and be capable of withstanding impacts of 300 joules (221.3 foot-pounds) at the critical locations on the door, as well as a 1,113-newton (250 pounds) constant tensile load on the knob or handle, and > (3) The door must resist penetration by small arms fire and fragmentation devices to a level equivalent to Level IIIa of the National Institute of Justice Standard (NIJ) 0101.04. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/31 "2014-10-21T15:16:27Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > Like everything else that is regulated, the requirements for the reinforced cockpit door are available to anyone. > > They look designed to defeat or delay one or two people, not necessarily an entire airplane of folks who want to get through the door. > > I am trying to find out what the doors are made of and have seen remarks that they are Kevlar, hardened steel, or a light weight ceramic/glass armor. No cites, though. > > Not sure how to convert 300 joules into the size and speed of a running person or using one of those drink carts as a battering ram. Kinetic Energy = 1/2 m\*v^2. Mass in kilograms, velocity in meters/second. You just need to know the mass of one of those drink carts and the speed it is going when it slams into the door. I don’t know, either, but here’s an example set of guesses. Suppose the cart loaded down with soda is 100 pounds, and it is traveling at 10 mph when it slams into the door. Then, using google to convert : KE = 1/2 \* (45.4)\* (4.47)^2 = 453 joules. That’s a pretty heavy impact, and I don’t know how much bigger an impact a team of passengers could manage. Another problem is the door is quite possibly built to handle many times the official minimum specs - it’s not uncommon for real world designs to handle significantly more than the minimum specs in actual real world loads. Mechanical engineers like to overbuild things. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/32 "2014-10-21T15:36:12Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > That was one thing I was wondering about Helios 522 that I’ve never seen addressed. Why did the flight attendant take so long to enter the cockpit with the passengers passing out and no response from the crew? Likely because the FAs were passing out along with everyone else. In fact if they were up and about, burning O2 at a higher rate, it’s a fair bet they passed out _before_ most of the other (sitting) occupants. FA may not have been able to enter cockpit until plane descended to an altitude at which consciousness was possible - which didn’t leave much time (or any fuel) to perform any useful action. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/33 "2014-10-21T16:17:32Z")
> [@Fishtar](#): > > Seems a decent script for a sitcom. Pilots leave cockpit to deal with Kramer and accidently lock themselves out. Or maybe Open Water III. > > As far as emergency procedures, I imagine that depends on both the airline and the aircraft. > > How poison proof are those doors? Say on an older 737? In fact, in a Globe and Mail article discussing Chinese airlines in the early 80’s, they mentioned this scenario. At the time, travel was still restricted and people hijacking Chinese flights to South Korea were not uncommon, so the doors were reinforced. Apparently the co-pilot was out of the cockpit, the pilot left it on auto and came out and the door slammed behind him. the front-row passengers were treated to the sight of the two pilots for quite a while trying to chop the door open with the axe from the fire hose box. They finally got in. I’m assuming if there is an axe on any western flights, it’s well hidden. (the article also mentioned one flight where the author was served a bowl of rice with a smatter of gravy. he went up to the galley to find the flight crew scarfing down the chunks of meat they’d taken off the top of every bowl they served. Or the bit where the Boeing engineers asked how China Airlines calculated the flight capability of the Russian airliner when taking off from Lhasa, Tibet at 10,000 feet ASL. Simple - if they got to the marker 2/3 the way down the runway and hadn’t gotten airborne, slam on the brakes, and offload a bunch of passengers and luggage, try again). ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/34 "2014-10-21T22:31:55Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > That’s a pretty heavy impact, and I don’t know how much bigger an impact a team of passengers could manage. Another problem is the door is quite possibly built to handle many times the official minimum specs - it’s not uncommon for real world designs to handle significantly more than the minimum specs in actual real world loads. Mechanical engineers like to overbuild things. I don’t know that the doors are overbuilt, weight is anathema to an airplane, but now that I’ve found a picture they are well designed for defense. [Here’s the cockpit door on a 777.](http://www.airteamimages.com/boeing-777__-_102963_large.html) My idea to ram it with a cart would be an utter failure, notice the step that would prevent it (don’t recall if there is also a 90 degree turn there). We are also dealing with protected hinges and very narrow room to operate. I think I could get through it if I had no resistance or interference from my fellow passengers, but I am fairly certain that an ax, sledge hammer, and crowbar are considered prohibited items by even the TSA. If nothing like that is available in the passenger cabin, then [“you must trust me when I say it’s very likely we are all going to die.”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjC6aGY4Po8) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/35 "2014-10-21T23:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > What happens if both pilots die at the same time ? (after 9/11) better hope Ted Stryker is on board. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/36 "2014-10-22T00:52:43Z")
I fly a turboprop at a regional airline. I doubt very much anyone could force our cockpit door open from the outside. Hell, I once got locked INSIDE when it jammed. There is no electronic pass code, although some airliners are so equipped. If we were incapacitated it would be very bad for everyone on board. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/37 "2014-10-22T02:36:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Also most planes have satellite phones outside the cockpit which the cabin attendants could have used to call for help if they couldn’t contact the pilots, which obviously didn’t happen. Cite that most planes have sat phones outside the cockpit? Not that I don’t believe you, just wondering what the details are. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/38 "2014-10-22T02:47:39Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Also most planes have satellite phones outside the cockpit which the cabin attendants could have used to call for help if they couldn’t contact the pilots, which obviously didn’t happen. > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Cite that most planes have sat phones outside the cockpit? Not that I don’t believe you, just wondering what the details are. Also, is there a scenario that whatever killed or knocked out the pilots would have knocked out the satellite phone system too? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/39 "2014-10-22T03:39:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Cite that most planes have sat phones outside the cockpit? Not that I don’t believe you, just wondering what the details are. Some of our planes have sat phones, some don’t. But they’re inside the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750/40 "2014-10-22T04:48:54Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > I don’t know that the doors are overbuilt, weight is anathema to an airplane, but now that I’ve found a picture they are well designed for defense. > > [Here’s the cockpit door on a 777.](http://www.airteamimages.com/boeing-777__-_102963_large.html) > > My idea to ram it with a cart would be an utter failure, notice the step that would prevent it (don’t recall if there is also a 90 degree turn there). We are also dealing with protected hinges and very narrow room to operate. I think I could get through it if I had no resistance or interference from my fellow passengers, but I am fairly certain that an ax, sledge hammer, and crowbar are considered prohibited items by even the TSA. If nothing like that is available in the passenger cabin, then [“you must trust me when I say it’s very likely we are all going to die.”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjC6aGY4Po8) So, with the changes made to cockpit doors since 9/11 there would be no way for passengers to crash their way into the cockpit and overpower the hijackers like the ones on United Flight 93? And there would be no way to prevent the hijackers from crashing the plane into the White House or Capitol Building if a similar situation were to happen today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-both-pilots-die-at-the-same-time-after-9-11/701750.md?page=3)