# What happens if the executive branch refuses to obey orders from the judicial branch **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 15, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603 "2016-10-15T15:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/41 "2017-01-30T12:50:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But if it’s an executive action that doesn’t involve throwing people in jail, a President probably could defy it, as Jackson did, and get away with it unless impeached. When did Jackson defy the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/42 "2017-01-30T12:57:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nothing to “fear”. That’s small potatoes in the process, as it’s not uncommon for some back-and-forth to happen before folks settle on what the final course of action will be. It also might be just a handful of employees not fully familiar with their duties under a court order. > > We went thru a lot of this when SSM was decreed to be legal in the US and several counties tried to defy the order or stall. Surely you don’t think this is the first time a judge’s orders were not carried immediately, do you? It’s not just [“a handful of employees”](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-courts-constitutional-crisis_us_588ea5bfe4b0176377953710?)-it’s a general ignoring the the Judicial Branch has any authority at all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/43 "2017-01-30T14:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Exapno Mapcase** : > > A truly amateurish job would have cracked at a hundred points. Which our Constitution has done, and each time it’s been caulked over or duct-taped. This was quite a common occurrence when our nation was still young; it’s much more alarming now that we’ve grown older and more rigid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/44 "2017-01-30T15:56:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not just [“a handful of employees”](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-courts-constitutional-crisis_us_588ea5bfe4b0176377953710?)-it’s a general ignoring the the Judicial Branch has any authority at all. Not seeing where your cite supports that claim. Can you quote the part you think does? This part, btw, is just speculation by the article’s author: > [@](#): > > But there was little indication that the Trump administration has fully complied with the court orders — or that Trump’s inner circle even believed the administration had to do so. Makes for juicy reading, but not much more. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/45 "2017-01-30T16:18:07Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Stephen K Bannon claimed Trump’s Inaugural speech (which he wrote) was “Jacksonian.” [https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2017/live-updates/politics/live-coverage-of-trumps-inauguration/bannon-calls-trumps-speech-jacksonian/?utm\_term=.409973156661](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2017/live-updates/politics/live-coverage-of-trumps-inauguration/bannon-calls-trumps-speech-jacksonian/?utm_term=.409973156661) > > Andrew Jackson actually had more experience than Trump. And his Inaugural speech sounds reasonable–even though his subsequent actions were not. [http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=25810](http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=25810) > > Yes, Jackson was a hotheaded duellist, a slavedriver–and he defied the Supreme Court to remove the tribes. Still, better than Trump. And he had a far better speechwriter… **Moderator Note** Let’s keep political potshots out of GQ. No warning issued, but stick to the question in the OP. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/46 "2017-01-30T17:11:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which our Constitution has done, and each time it’s been caulked over or duct-taped. This was quite a common occurrence when our nation was still young; it’s much more alarming now that we’ve grown older and more rigid. France has had [seventeen constitutions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_France#Past_constitutions) in that time. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/47 "2017-02-01T03:40:56Z")
So we are continuuing to find out what happens. > **[Feds Blow Off Judge and Congressmen to Enforce Trump’s Orders at Dulles](https://www.thedailybeast.com/feds-blow-off-judge-and-congressmen-to-enforce-trumps-orders-at-dulles)** > > Congressmen and lawyers—attempting to uphold a federal court order—were strong-armed by officials at Dulles Airport. I don’t think you can put this down to “a few staff not knowing what to do”. It’s several days later and CBP is still defying court orders and wouldn’t even let Democratic Congressmen that went to Dulles talk to CBP officials. If the Republican party mainstream doesn’t censor Trump for this, then de facto the US only has one arm of government now, the executive. Trump is directly challenging the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/48 "2017-02-01T05:28:22Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > So we are continuuing to find out what happens. > [Feds Blow Off Judge and Congressmen to Enforce Trump’s Orders at Dulles](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/30/feds-defy-judge-and-congressmen-to-uphold-trump-s-orders-at-dulles.html) > > I don’t think you can put this down to “a few staff not knowing what to do”. It’s several days later and CBP is still defying court orders and wouldn’t even let Democratic Congressmen that went to Dulles talk to CBP officials. > > If the Republican party mainstream doesn’t censor Trump for this, then de facto the US only has one arm of government now, the executive. Trump is directly challenging the rule of law. Your cite doesn’t support the claim that they are still defying it. It only covers through Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/49 "2017-02-01T06:13:03Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Your cite doesn’t support the claim that they are still defying it. It only covers through Sunday. Here is another report, its from 2AM on Feb 1st, article to come out in the morning. [https://twitter.com/charesilver/status/826447357105491968](https://twitter.com/charesilver/status/826447357105491968) US Marshalls reportedly refusing to enforce Federal court orders and CBP still not complying with them. Note this is from a reporter who writes for Vice and the Nation, not some random person on twitter. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/50 "2017-02-01T06:17:40Z")
A related question: suppose there isn’t any proof that the officials doing the refusing are doing so on orders from higher up (I don’t know whether that’s the case here or not; I’m sticking to the generalized hypothetical of the OP). Would the courts have any cause of action against the executive, besides perhaps forcing them to say officially that their people should obey the orders? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603/51 "2017-02-01T07:17:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A related question: suppose there isn’t any proof that the officials doing the refusing are doing so on orders from higher up (I don’t know whether that’s the case here or not; I’m sticking to the generalized hypothetical of the OP). Would the courts have any cause of action against the executive, besides perhaps forcing them to say officially that their people should obey the orders? Yes. Generally the law will require either a very senior official to do something ("The Attorney-General shall do X . . . ") or an agency (“The Internal Revenue Service shall do X . . .”) As long as X is done, the law has been satisfied, so this doesn’t require the Attorney-General _personally_ to discharge every duty imposed on him; he is free to arrange for X to be done by one or other of his vast staff of officers and employees. But if X isn’t done, then it’s the A-G’s job to see that it gets done, and he can’t excuse himself by saying “well, I told Officer Blob to do it, but he won’t”; the courts will sanction the AG for not getting X done. Similarly if the duty is imposed on a agency, the courts will sanction the agency (and, where appropriate, its chief executive) if the duty is not discharged. The incompetence or insubordination of staff is the AG’s problem/the IRS’s problem, but it doesn’t provide them with any defence to a complaint about their failure to discharge the duties imposed on them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-executive-branch-refuses-to-obey-orders-from-the-judicial-branch/768603.md?page=2)