# What happens if the Queen survives an heir (UK)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144 "2019-06-27T09:15:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/141 "2019-07-03T19:48:35Z")
Well, there is [Princess Michael of Kent,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Michael_of_Kent), wife of Prince Michael of Kent, although that seems to be an issue of the style of title rather than a name change. > [@](#): > > Upon their marriage, she was accorded the style and title of Her Royal Highness Princess Michael of Kent, the female equivalent to her husband’s title: not being of royal birth, she is therefore not titled Princess Marie Christine. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/142 "2019-07-03T21:31:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Well, there is [Princess Michael of Kent,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Michael_of_Kent), wife of Prince Michael of Kent, although that seems to be an issue of the style of title rather than a name change. Her style descends from the same theory that says the wife of the Duke of Kent is styled the Duchess of Kent, and the wife of Mr. John Smith is Mrs. John Smith. Princess Michael of Kent is the only current member of the family using that style, but mostly because sons of younger sons aren’t automatically called Prince X anymore (witness Archie Mountbatten-Windsor or James, Viscount Severn). In the olden days, it was more common; see Princess Arthur of Connaught, e.g., who was usually known by this style even though she was Duchess of Fife in her own right, or Princess Andrew of Greece (Prince Philip’s mother). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/143 "2019-07-03T21:58:06Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Her style descends from the same theory that says the wife of the Duke of Kent is styled the Duchess of Kent, and the wife of Mr. John Smith is Mrs. John Smith. Does it work the other way? Before becoming queen, could the husband of Princess Elizabeth been called Prince Elizabeth? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/144 "2019-07-03T22:08:00Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Does it work the other way? Before becoming queen, could the husband of Princess Elizabeth been called Prince Elizabeth? No, because while women traditionally take their husband’s name on marriage, men don’t take their wives’ name. Princess Margaret’s husband [Antony Armstrong-Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Armstrong-Jones,_1st_Earl_of_Snowdon), a commoner, received the title the Earl of Snowden, and Margaret took her husband’s title as Countess of Snowden (while remaining a Princess). ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/145 "2019-07-03T22:15:39Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Does it work the other way? Before becoming queen, could the husband of Princess Elizabeth been called Prince Elizabeth? Nope (at least not in Britain, and not in any other European country–I don’t know much about African or Asian practices). A wife’s identity was subsumed by that of her husband, not the other way around. This applied both socially and legally ([coverture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverture) in English common law and related concepts in civil-law countries). ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/146 "2019-07-04T03:12:57Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > You don’t bury the old one though 🙂 And if the incumbent POTUS pops his clogs, doesn’t the VP instantly become Prez? Yep. > [@](#): > > **[From the 25th Amendment of the Constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution):** > Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President. It happened _once_ after the Amendment’s ratification, when Nixon resigned and Ford became President. I had to read the section to make sure he wasn’t declared “_Acting_ President.” Interesting read about Princess Michael. So I have to assume you must be of Royal birth/lineage to be entitled to _a title_? How’d that work for Meghan, then? She wasn’t of Royal blood, but the [Wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_of_Prince_Harry_and_Meghan_Markle) says the Queen conferred Harry some titles, and that . . . > [@](#): > > On her marriage, Markle became Duchess of Sussex, Countess of Dumbarton and Baroness Kilkeel. Did the Queen just not confer a title on Marie? Tripler Not high enough on the food chain, perhaps? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/147 "2019-07-04T03:30:57Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Interesting read about Princess Michael. So I have to assume you must be of Royal birth/lineage to be entitled to _a title_? How’d that work for Meghan, then? She wasn’t of Royal blood, but the [Wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_of_Prince_Harry_and_Meghan_Markle) says the Queen conferred Harry some titles, and that . . . > > Did the Queen just not confer a title on Marie? > > Tripler > Not high enough on the food chain, perhaps? 😕 The Queen didn’t give a title to Meghan Markle (or to Kate Middleton or Camilla Parker-Bowles either). She gave a title to Harry: > [@](#): > > In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm, dated the 16th July 2018 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales, K.C.V.O., and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Kilkeel, Earl of Dumbarton, and Duke of Sussex.–[London Gazette](https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3071743) As his wife, Meghan is automatically allowed to use the feminine form of “Duchess of Sussex,” but the title belongs only to Harry. The Queen could grant a title to Meghan or to Marie-Christine in their own rights; Queen Victoria, for example, gave the title of [Duchess of Inverness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecilia_Underwood,_1st_Duchess_of_Inverness) to her uncle’s sort-of-but-not-quite wife (the marriage was legally void under the Royal Marriages Act), and Charles II granted ducal titles to several of his mistresses. Such examples are quite rare but possible. The Queen did not grant a separate title (dukedom or earldom) to Prince Michael, however, so his wife uses the feminine form of the only title he has: Princess Michael. (She did not create a separate title for the younger son of her uncle the Duke of Gloucester, either, who was in an analogous position to Prince Michael, so that cousin’s wife was styled Princess Richard of Gloucester early in her marriage. However, the unexpected death of Richard’s older brother left him the heir, and his wife is now [HRH The Duchess of Gloucester](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitte,_Duchess_of_Gloucester), again using the feminine form of a title that actually belongs only to her husband.) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/148 "2019-07-04T05:49:32Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Queen Victoria’s first name was actually Alexandrina, Edward VII was Albert, George VI was also Albert. Victoria’s first _given_ name was Alexandrina, but she and the court were already using the name Victoria before her accession. I don’t know that she was ever “Princess Alexandrina of Kent,” but if she was, she was “Princess Victoria of Kent” by the time she was a teenager. So she didn’t choose a new name, she just kept using her actual name. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/149 "2019-07-04T06:53:29Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Victoria’s first _given_ name was Alexandrina, but she and the court were already using the name Victoria before her accession. I don’t know that she was ever “Princess Alexandrina of Kent,” but if she was, she was “Princess Victoria of Kent” by the time she was a teenager. So she didn’t choose a new name, she just kept using her actual name. In the court circular and similar official documents she used to feature as “Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandrina Victoria of Kent”. “Alexandrina” came from Tsar Alexander I, who was one of her godparents, and “Victoria” was her mother’s given name. Within the family she was called Alexandrina or 'Drina, presumably to distinguish her from her mother, and this name was used all her life by her mother and I think all her mother’s family. But from her teenage years she encouraged her friends to call her Victoria, and outside her immediate family this was the name used by the (relatively few) people who were on first-name terms with her. I seem to recall reading that the accession proclamation issued on the death of her uncle actually proclaimed her as Queen Alexandrina Victoria, and it was only a couple of days later that the decision was announced to use Victoria as her regnal name. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/151 "2019-07-04T07:05:37Z")
I think her choice of name as a teenager seeped out into officialdom too, because by 1832 Parliament [was using the name Victoria alone](https://books.google.com/books?id=yEEtAKb5GHIC&dq=%22Princess%20Victoria%20of%20Kent%22%20parliament&pg=PR6#v=snippet&q=%22Princess%20Victoria%22&f=false) when recording debates about her financial support. (It does also mention “Princess Alexandrina Victoria” once, when discussing the relevant Regency Act.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/152 "2019-07-04T07:14:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There’s no such thing as a King Consort, at least in English usage. The non-ruling spouse of a Queen Regnant is titled a Prince Consort. There isn’t in Spanish as a title at any level, either, but we add the “consort” behind anybody who acquires a title by marriage when not doing so could lead to confusion. The current Duke of Alba is the Duke of Alba; his mother’s three husbands were referred to as “the Duke Consort” because they were Dukes only by marriage. And the “Prince Consorts” that you mention weren’t kings of other domains in their own right: Philip was. Most of the Queens of England or of anywhere else have been Queens Consort, but there is no mention of their being queens by marriage because it’s the default. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/153 "2019-07-04T08:01:09Z")
> [@influencer](#): > > would you like to know celebrities and influencers bio,life? > Fashion Influencer > Lifestyle Influencer > Model Influencer > Fitness Influencer > Business Influencer > Sport Influencer > > [https://influencer-dic.com/](https://influencer-dic.com/) reported ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/154 "2019-07-04T14:40:31Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The Queen didn’t give a title to Meghan Markle (or to Kate Middleton or Camilla Parker-Bowles either). She gave a title to Harry: > > In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm, dated the 16th July 2018 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales, K.C.V.O., and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Kilkeel, Earl of Dumbarton, and Duke of Sussex.–London Gazette > > As his wife, Meghan is automatically allowed to use the feminine form of “Duchess of Sussex,” but the title belongs only to Harry. Um. I read something a while back about them passing a new law to make girls the equivalent of boys, at least, it said if Prince William’s first child was a girl, she would be his heir, and not bumped out of the way by any subsequent male children. Was that a special law that applied only in the particular case of inheriting the crown, or does it now apply to all inherited titles? If Duke Whoozie has his first child now, would a daughter become Duchess Whoozie in her own right? Assuming she outlives him, of course. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/155 "2019-07-04T14:50:35Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Was that a special law that applied only in the particular case of inheriting the crown, Yes > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > or does it now apply to all inherited titles? No. The law in question is about succession to the crown. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/156 "2019-07-04T15:15:36Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Yes > > No. The law in question is about succession to the crown. Thank you for the fast answer! So…the patriarchy yields only one grudging millimeter at a time, eh? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/157 "2019-07-04T16:55:06Z")
Something like that. But since hereditary peerages no longer automatically put people into the House of Lords, they’re losing significant legal status anyway. AFAIK the property and estates don’t automatically go with the title, even if they haven’t already been sold off or passed on to the National Trust. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/158 "2019-07-04T17:56:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And the “Prince Consorts” that you mention weren’t kings of other domains in their own right: Philip was. Actually, at the time the marriage was arranged, Philip wasn’t king of anything. (Interesting trivia: Philip became King of England and Ireland before he became King of Spain.) Philip was married to Mary from July 1554 until her death in 1558. His father Charles V abdicated the throne of Naples and ceded it Philip in order to make him of equal rank to Mary. Charles didn’t abdicate the Spanish throne in Philip’s favor until January 1556. As far as I can glean, the co-regency of Philip and Mary in England was not reciprocal, and Mary was merely Queen Consort in Naples, Spain, and Philip’s other dominions. As I said, the situation between Philip and Mary was unique and unprecedented as far as the English throne went, and was governed by a special law. The only other husband of a Queen Regnant who was a co-ruler, William III, was able to swing a special deal that he would succeed his wife if he predeceased her (even though he was not next in line by heredity) mainly because he happened to have an army at hand. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/159 "2019-07-04T20:00:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > William III, was able to swing a special deal that he would succeed his wife if he predeceased her (even though he was not next in line by heredity) mainly because he happened to have an army at hand. You make it sound like he was made King because of the threat of his army, but that’s not the case at all. He was extremely popular among the great majority of the population of England and Scotland - a great Protestant hero. Far from his army being a threat, it was enthusiastically welcomed by cheering crowds as he marched inland. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/160 "2019-07-04T20:37:46Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > You make it sound like he was made King because of the threat of his army, but that’s not the case at all. > > He was extremely popular among the great majority of the population of England and Scotland - a great Protestant hero. Far from his army being a threat, it was enthusiastically welcomed by cheering crowds as he marched inland. You completely misinterpreted my post. I didn’t go into all the political considerations involved. Parliament was happy to make him king, they just were reluctant to give him the right to remain King even if Mary died. He didn’t threaten Parliament with his army, but he did threaten to take his ball and go home if he didn’t get his way, which could have made them vulnerable to a Jacobite restoration. From Wiki: > [@](#): > > William felt insecure about his position; though his wife preceded him in the line of succession to the throne, he wished to reign as king in his own right, rather than as a mere consort.[80] The only precedent for a joint monarchy in England dated from the 16th century, when Queen Mary I married Philip of Spain.[81] Philip remained king only during his wife’s lifetime, and restrictions were placed on his power. William, on the other hand, demanded that he remain as king even after his wife’s death.[82] When the majority of Tory Lords proposed to acclaim her as sole ruler, William threatened to leave the country immediately. Furthermore, Mary, remaining loyal to her husband, refused.[83] > > The House of Commons, with a Whig majority, quickly resolved that the throne was vacant, and that it was safer if the ruler were Protestant. There were more Tories in the House of Lords, which would not initially agree, but after William refused to be a regent or to agree to remain king only in his wife’s lifetime, there were negotiations between the two houses and the Lords agreed by a narrow majority that the throne was vacant. The fact that he had an army definitely improved his bargaining position in getting the deal he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/161 "2019-07-04T22:05:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yep. Apparently kingons (or maybe queons) are the only physical particles which travel instantaneously. In the case of [Alfonso XIII](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_XIII_of_Spain) of Spain they even traveled instantaneously and spent 6 months waiting to be allowed to land. > [@bob\_2](#): > > You don’t bury the old one though 🙂 And if the incumbent POTUS pops his clogs, doesn’t the VP instantly become Prez? Yes, but in that case, the particles are demogenic republicons, rather than kingons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144.md?page=9)