# What happens if the Queen survives an heir (UK)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144 "2019-06-27T09:15:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/162 "2019-07-05T00:47:46Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Yes, but in that case, the particles are demogenic republicons, rather than kingons. And I think the former only travel at the speed of light, whereas the latter are instantaneous. But we’ll have to verify this with experiment. Any one got a spare grand duke who won’t be missed? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/163 "2019-07-05T02:52:43Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > So…the patriarchy yields only one grudging millimeter at a time, eh? Part of the issue is that the letters patent creating most titles (there are some very old titles created in other ways) specify who is allowed to succeed. While the default has long been “heirs male of the body lawfully begotten,” there are exceptions. For example, the succession to the Dukedom of Fife was “the heirs male of his body by his marriage with H.R.H. Princess Louise of Wales … with remainder in default of such issue to their elder daughter Lady Alexandra Duff and after her decease to her heirs male, with like remainder in default of such issue to Lady Maud Duff and to her heirs male and in default of such issue to each of the after born daughters of the Duke of Fife and Princess Louise of Wales and the heirs male of the body and respective bodies of such daughters severally and successively one after another”; the Dukedom of Marlborough has [a very complicated remainder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Marlborough_(title)#Line_of_succession) that can go through female lines in an effort to find somebody, anybody, to inherit. Some other titles were granted with remainders allowing siblings or other relatives of the original holder to inherit, which is unusual (e.g., Earl Kitchener). A blanket change for all peerage titles would override special instructions unique to specific titles. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/164 "2019-07-05T11:07:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > That is contradictory. Under your logic Albert Frederick Arthur George would never have taken that regnal name George because of how George III acted. This may rock your world, but George III does not have the negative perception in the UK that he holds in the US. We don’t have much of an opinion about him really - ruled a long time, had a good marriage - but his son George IV was bloody awful. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/165 "2019-07-05T12:22:26Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This may rock your world, but George III does not have the negative perception in the UK that he holds in the US. We don’t have much of an opinion about him really - ruled a long time, had a good marriage - but his son George IV was bloody awful. [The Four Georges - Born To Rule Over You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al1zdtfAnG8) ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/166 "2019-07-06T08:49:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The only other husband of a Queen Regnant who was a co-ruler, William III, was able to swing a special deal that he would succeed his wife **if he predeceased her** (even though he was not next in line by heredity) mainly because he happened to have an army at hand. Even with an army, them’s some mad negotiating skills. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/167 "2019-07-06T09:17:08Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This may rock your world, but George III does not have the negative perception in the UK that he holds in the US. We don’t have much of an opinion about him really - ruled a long time, had a good marriage - but his son George IV was bloody awful. I sing the Georges four for Providence could stand no more. Some say that far the worst of all was George the First, and yet by some 'tis reckoned that worse still was George the Second, and what mortal ever heard any good of George the Third? When George the Fourth from Earth descended, thank God the line of Georges ended. –Walter Savage Landor ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/168 "2019-07-06T12:14:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The only other husband of a Queen Regnant who was a co-ruler, William III, was able to swing a special deal that he would succeed his wife if he predeceased her (even though he was not next in line by heredity) mainly because he happened to have an army at hand. Not really accurate. William was offered the throne with his wife because he threatened to **go home** if he didn’t get it. If he had, Mary would have gone too, and the English elite would have been stuck with a succession crisis. They needed William and Mary to displace James without returning to the bad old days of the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/169 "2019-07-06T12:52:24Z")
The joint monarchy of William and Mary was also a _limited_ monarchy, as laid down in the 1689 Bill of Rights, and accepted by William and Mary. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689): > [@](#): > > The Bill of Rights lays down limits on the powers of the monarch and sets out the rights of Parliament, including the requirement for regular parliaments, free elections, and freedom of speech in Parliament.[1] It sets out certain rights of individuals including the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment and reestablished the right of Protestants to have arms for their defence within the rule of law. It also includes no right of taxation without Parliament’s agreement. … > > A separate but similar document, the Claim of Right Act 1689, applies in Scotland. The Bill of Rights 1689 was one of the models for the United States Bill of Rights of 1789, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 and the European Convention on Human Rights of 1950.[1] > > Along with the Act of Settlement 1701, the Bill of Rights is still in effect in all Commonwealth realms. Following the Perth Agreement in 2011, legislation amending both of them came into effect across the Commonwealth realms on 26 March 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/170 "2019-07-06T13:58:29Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Even with an army, them’s some mad negotiating skills. 😃 :smack: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/171 "2019-07-06T14:11:05Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Not really accurate. William was offered the throne with his wife because he threatened to **go home** if he didn’t get it. If he had, Mary would have gone too, and the English elite would have been stuck with a succession crisis. > > They needed William and Mary to displace James without returning to the bad old days of the Civil War. Not really accurate. Anne, Mary’s sister, was also in line for the throne and actually preceded William. If Mary hadn’t accepted the throne, it could have been offered to Anne (who eventually succeeded William anyway.) Like Mary, Anne was Protestant, as was her husband Prince George of Denmark. The fact the William had landed with an army and caused James II to flee was a major factor in him getting the deal he insisted on. There were alternatives available. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/172 "2019-07-06T14:56:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Not really accurate. Anne, Mary’s sister, was also in line for the throne and actually preceded William. If Mary hadn’t accepted the throne, it could have been offered to Anne (who eventually succeeded William anyway.) Like Mary, Anne was Protestant, as was her husband Prince George of Denmark. The fact the William had landed with an army and caused James II to flee was a major factor in him getting the deal he insisted on. There were alternatives available. It’s my understand that the William/Mary combination was essential to cement the fragile alliance between Whigs and Tories in Parliament which enacted the famous and enduring fudge declaring that James had abdicated the Throne by fleeing the country. Anne was a legitimate heir but was not a war leader like William. It’s been a while since I read up on the subject though. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/173 "2019-07-06T15:51:02Z")
It’s worth bearing in mind that the Glorious Revolution didn’t take place in isolation. Events in Britain were only a small part of a far larger conflict engulfing the whole of Western Europe - the Nine Years’ War. Nor was it a simple matter of Catholics vs. Protestants. Catholic Spain (and the Pope) were allied with several Protestant states against Catholic France and Ireland. William’s landing in England prompted France to declare war on the Dutch Republic. In the immediately following Williamite War In Ireland, Dutch, French Huguenot, German and Danish troops together far outnumbered English and Scottish troops in the allied army fighting in Ireland. The Irish Catholic army was financed and supplied by France, had a large number of French regular troops, and was commanded by a French general. Also involved in the conflict were the Holy Roman Empire, Sweden, Spain, Portugal and Savoy. There were battles and sieges all over the place. Once Ireland had been subdued, English and Scottish troops crossed to the Continent and took part in the conflict in Holland and Germany. So we have to see William becoming King Regnant of England and Scotland in that whole context. William was the highly capable and successful general holding together the Grand Alliance. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/174 "2019-07-06T15:55:04Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Anne was a legitimate heir but was not a war leader like William. That’s sort of the point. William was already a recognized military leader in campaigns against the French. Leading political figures in England sent him an invitation to invade _because he had an army_, and were ultimately willing to accept his demands because he had a lot more prestige and political and military power in his own right than Anne and her husband. William and Mary weren’t the only game in town, but they were the best option for a stable monarchy. (Actually, the only practical effect of William’s demand was that he jumped the queue in front of Anne. If she hadn’t been around, he would have succeeded to the throne on Mary’s death anyway as the next heir in line.) You can quibble over how important his army was but the fact that he was a military leader in a time of crisis was what gave him the clout to be invited in and ultimately get his way. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144/175 "2019-07-07T03:15:14Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Which is too bad, because they could use a bit more variety in the names of British kings. Something other than Charles, Edward, George, Henry, James, Richard, or William (which all but two kings have been named since 1066). Perhaps another Philip? Hmm. No, that didn’t work out too well last time: [Philip II of Spain - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Spain#King_of_England_and_Ireland) ETA: Ah, I see **Colibri** and others already discussed him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-the-queen-survives-an-heir-uk/836144.md?page=8)