# What happens if they testify anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363 "2019-09-17T04:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/1 "2019-09-17T04:02:25Z")
[White House orders 2 former aides to defy House subpoenas](https://apnews.com/69464e1fb86c4089a0f856dbc1df603d) > [@](#): > > The White House has instructed two former aides to President Donald Trump not to appear at a House Judiciary Committee hearing Tuesday, saying Rick Dearborn and Rob Porter are “absolutely immune” from testifying at what the panel is calling its first impeachment hearing. > > In a letter sent to the panel and obtained by The Associated Press, White House counsel Pat Cipollone wrote that the Justice Department has advised — and Trump has directed — Dearborn and Porter to defy subpoenas because of “constitutional immunity.” Lawyers for both men said they would follow Trump’s orders. What if one or both of them testified anyway? What repercussions would there be for them? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/2 "2019-09-17T05:41:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [White House orders 2 former aides to defy House subpoenas](https://apnews.com/69464e1fb86c4089a0f856dbc1df603d) > What if one or both of them testified anyway? What repercussions would there be for them? They’d be fired. They might lose the legal counsel they receive as government employees and would have to hire their own lawyers. They might also lose job-related immunity. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/3 "2019-09-17T05:54:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They’d be fired. They might lose the legal counsel they receive as government employees and would have to hire their own lawyers. They might also lose job-related immunity. They don’t work for the White House anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/4 "2019-09-17T14:20:17Z")
They’d get the wrath of Donald on them. But there is really nothing that can be done if they choose to testify. There is no "contempt of the president statute as far as I know. Probably they don’t want to testify and are using it as an excuse. By the time this gets settled in the courts, the election might well be over. Here is my take. First place, if congress cannot investigate a possible impeachment by subpoenas of white house papers and personnel, then the impeachment clause is a dead letter. Any court that ruled against the congress is ignoring the constitution big league. On the other hand, I also don’t think the house has any real expectation of impeaching the president; they want only to investigate him and the impeachment proceedings are the easiest way to do that. That’s also their excuse for asking for his tax returns which they have an absolute right to, but the executive is still blocking it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/5 "2019-09-17T14:32:11Z")
Nothing. They cannot be held personally liable for obeying a subpoena. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/6 "2019-09-17T14:44:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nothing. They cannot be held personally liable for obeying a subpoena. Can they be held personally liable for disobeying a subpoena? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/7 "2019-09-17T16:13:05Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Can they be held personally liable for disobeying a subpoena? I don’t think they can as long as they can point to the POTUS’ claim of immunity from the subpoena. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/8 "2019-09-17T16:17:25Z")
Short answer no, after they go through with a Supreme Court fight and lose then Trump just pardons them. They are basically being told that the POTUS has their back if they defy congress. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/9 "2019-09-17T16:34:28Z")
If Trump is asserting some variant of executive privilege, (which in its original formulation would not mean people could just not show up, I think) then Trump could intervene and ask a court to enjoin the proceedings/questioning/answers/whatever. What the rights of the executive are will get sorted out, and then (I’m betting) the proceedings will continue with some limitations based on a much narrower understanding of executive privilege than Trump and his administration is asserting. I do not at all understand how the Justice Department can be advising people to defy Congressional subpoenas though, when it is DOJ that prosecutes contempts of Congress, I think. (Not sure, can’t look it up right now.) It seems like there would be a big conflict there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/10 "2019-09-17T17:17:39Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Can they be held personally liable for disobeying a subpoena? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/11 "2019-09-17T18:28:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think they can as long as they can point to the POTUS’ claim of immunity from the subpoena. Can the law society disbar a lawyer that the House judges guilty of contempt of congress? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/12 "2019-09-17T21:06:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > They don’t work for the White House anymore. You’re right. (In my defense, the Trump administration breaks so many laws, it’s difficult to keep up.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/13 "2019-09-17T21:16:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Can the law society disbar a lawyer that the House judges guilty of contempt of congress? We don’t have law societies here. The governing body in each state is typically called the [state] bar association, but it may just be called the state bar or something else. Convictions are sometimes grounds for disbarment, but disbarment or suspension is highly unlikely based on a political refusal to testify before Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/14 "2019-09-17T21:33:35Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Short answer no, after they go through with a Supreme Court fight and lose then Trump just pardons them. They are basically being told that the POTUS has their back if they defy congress. One could question how much that is worth, given the number of Trump lawyers & associates currently serving prison time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/15 "2019-09-17T21:49:39Z")
**[Moderating]** A reminder, all, that this is a General Question, not a Great Debate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_chao_goes_mu/32/3191_2.png) [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Chao_Goes_Mu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/16 "2019-09-17T23:51:52Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Short answer no, after they go through with a Supreme Court fight and lose then Trump just pardons them. They are basically being told that the POTUS has their back if they defy congress. Does the President have carte blanche to pardon anyone he sees fit or is there a limit to that power? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/17 "2019-09-18T00:08:43Z")
> [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](#): > > Does the President have carte blanche to pardon anyone he sees fit or is there a limit to that power? If [the Wikipedia article on pardons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon#United_States) is anything to go by, he’s limited to pardoning people convicted of federal crimes (as well as crimes which have been convicted by a military court martial, and the Superior Court of the District of Columbia). I remember this coming up during one of the trials of either Manafort or Cohen, where commentators noted that Trump would not have had the authority to pardon them if they were convicted of state crimes. There’s also been the discussion as to whether the President has the power to pardon himself (to which I do not know the answer). ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/18 "2019-09-18T00:31:49Z")
If, hypothetically, these people were guilty of a federal crime, disobeying the directive of someone who can pardon them for that crime seems like a suboptimal move. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/19 "2019-09-18T01:00:48Z")
The only limits on the Presidential pardon power is that it only applies to federal crimes, and it can’t be used in case of impeachment. Though of course, the voters might not approve. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363/20 "2019-09-18T02:33:12Z")
> [@The\_Chao\_Goes\_Mu](#): > > Does the President have carte blanche to pardon anyone he sees fit or is there a limit to that power? Complete side bar, but welcome back, **The Chao Goes Mu**! Long time, no see! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-they-testify-anyway/840363.md?page=2)