I think the best response to this thread is another thread.
The problem with almost all conspiracy theories are that they require too many people to keep a secret.
In this, there is no secret keeping, they are pretty blatant about what they are doing. Many of the conspirators are all blabbing away, Trump’s admin leaks like a sieve.
It is just a matter of whether or not we go your route of complacency and let them, or we remain vigilant and not let them.
The downside is, of course, that if we are successful, then that strengthens your resolve that democracy takes care of itself with no input from its citizens. As that attitude becomes more pervasive, there are fewer and fewer citizens to stand up for democracy.
It’s like vaccines, the better they do their job, the more people think that they don’t need them. And like vaccines, if enough people think that we don’t need them, then we end up with a catastrophe on our hands.
You seem to be making the assumption that Trump doesn’t want power, and that the republicans are not willing to keep him in power in order to further their agenda. You are making the assumption that the republicans value democracy more than they value their “ideals”.
There is no secret conspiracy in what he might do - he’s told us directly that he might not recognize the election if it goes against him. It’s pretty clear he has no regard for the country, the people, the constitution, or anything that isn’t him or his. He has no morals. I think there is nothing he wouldn’t do to get his way, if he thought he could get away with it. Therefore, it makes sense to plan for anything he COULD do.
No other president that I know of has questioned the legitimacy of our system as much as he has, or even at all. He has on many occasions questioned our voting process, cried fraud, and has indicated he might ignore election results if he does not win. On numerous occasions, he’s talked about extending his presidency beyond the constitutionally-allowed two terms. Every other president, and even the losing candidates, have taken pains to make sure there was confidence in the voting process and the orderly transfer of power.
He could continue to stir up concern with accusations of fraud, particularly WRT the mail-in votes. It seems like every election for awhile now, there’s been some odd situation somewhere in the country - votes not counted and found after the fact, etc. It would be easy to latch onto one of these occurrences to cry foul. OR, what if he’s ahead when counting the votes at the polls, but when the mail-in votes are tallied, he loses the state?
He shouts to the heavens, “I TOLD you so! Fraud! Deep state, they’re all against me!” His base gets pissed, prominent republican officials may lend their voice to it. There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If they can get it to the supreme court, then it only really takes five votes to make him president. I don’t THINK Roberts would help Trump steal the election. Kind of scary to think it could get that far, though.
conspiracy - a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful
Nope, not conspiracy.
What we are observing is the blatant restructuring of our political system by elected officials. That is the parallel to Germany.
So, what do you propose?
I assume you’re speaking to me here.
Wrong again. I’m not in the least complacent. I’m trying to warn you all not to go the route of madness and let the real things that are actually likely to happen take you by surprise.
Your vaccine analogy is equally faulty. I can wear masks, and social distance, and limit outside contact. But I can’t do anything at all about COVID 19. I can’t manufacture a vaccine or distribute it or administer it. I can tell people the proper precautions to take. I can also yell at the people who insist that it comes from 5G towers. That’s a real analogy to what I’m reading in this thread.
Here’s the kicker. Neither I or anybody else in this thread can do a thing about any actions that Trump takes. I can work to get Democrats elected, but that’s not the subject. What do you propose to do if Trump moves along the lines stated in the OP? Start a thread in the Pit?
I propose we vote, then await the outcome.
If my worst fears come true (and as I said before, I agree with you that Roberts seems unlikely to vote in Trump’s favor in this situation), there’s nothing to do but mass protests after the fact.
EDIT: In review, I see you were replying to Crane, which makes more sense.
Then you are wrong again, as I am not taking the route of madness. I am simply being vigilant. Does that mean imagining scenarios that I hope do not come to pass, even ones that may be unlikely? Yes, but that is still not madness.
I would say that yes, telling people not to even imagine that such things could happen is the very definition of complacency. Calling people “mad” because they don’t want bad things to happen here is advocating for complacency.
Vaccines are not a hypothetical thing. They really do exist. So do anti-vaxxers. And my analogy holds perfectly fine, that they work well enough to make people think that they are not needed. Just as the bulwarks against fascism in our country have so far worked well enough that many people don’t think that they are needed.
Well, that’s the whole thing, isn’t it. If the events of the OP come to pass, then it’s too late to do anything about it. That’s why I am trying to raise awareness now, to stop it now, while we can do something about it.
Those who want to see the concentration camps in full extermination mode before they will lift a finger to preserve democracy are not going to be helpful. Those who tell me not to lift a finger until we have descended that far are assisting totalitarianism.
As for what I would do should that come to pass, that is not something that I am willing to discuss in public.
Then how about telling us what we should do “to stop it now, while we can do something about it”?
We won’t do anything but watch it unfold on TV.
Consider what is or was our self image as American citizens:
The great melting pot that welcomes all the intellects of the world
The great liberator that promotes democracy, freedom and trade throughout the world
The good guys who strike only when attacked and always play fair
The world leader in education, science and technology
The leader of world cooperation - NATO, Paris, Iran
The most powerful nation on earth
One nation, with liberty and justice for all
The reality:
We can’t afford to build the Super-Collider, but Switzerland can. Russia carries our astronauts into space and lands them in Kazakhstan. We rank 27th in the world in education. We have been defeated in all wars since 1945. We almost were defeated by a local police force in Grenada. We are scapegoating Mexicans and holding them in concentration camps. Jack booted federal troops are entering our cities against the will of the local people and authorities to incite riots. Police are murdering citizens during encounters over minor civil infractions.
We have watched these events unfold on nightly TV. They have simply become the norm. Used to be we didn’t torture, or invade, or stuff like that. Now we just watch it on TV.
Our incompetent President has mismanaged a pandemic so well that we now have 4,000,000 cases and 150,000 deaths. He is an international joke. Our system does not provide a cure. We cannot force a vote of no-confidence with a general strike. We can only watch it on TV.
Oh yeah, and we can keep score on how closely it tracks what happened in Germany.
If the Supreme Court is corrupt and helps a corrupt and wrong legal coup you either accept it or not. There are many ways to say no.
Talk to peers and make them also aware of the precariousness of the freedoms we take for granted.
Call your senators and congresspeoples.
Give money to activist groups for helping with protests or legal advocacy.
Give money to politicians who align with your views.
Volunteer for a politician who aligns with your views.
Volunteer to help to get people registered to vote, and when the time comes, to help them get their vote counted. This year is going to be weird.
Join in some protests.
Keep yourself aware and informed and ready to pivot to other avenues in which your assistance may be useful.
That’s what I am doing. I may not save the world, but if everybody did it, then the world wouldn’t need saving.
What do you think we should do? What do you do other than admonish others for voicing their concerns on a message board?
At this time, we should use what functioning levers of democracy that we still have at our disposal, which is pretty much just talking and persuasion. Effective enough tools for a functional democracy.
If that doesn’t work, then things get… messier. Less talk, but more persuasion.
What you do, minus the conspiracy theories that discredit our side.
I think Gorsuch might also not vote to thwart the will of the people. He seems to have some belief in the law.
I also have the idea, perhaps naive, that if the election went to the House of Representatives, some swing states with Republican delegations might vote for Biden if the majority of the people of their state did. Sure, some Republicans are party monsters and would vote for Trump even if the people of their state didn’t…but I think enough Republicans actually have just enough integrity to represent the people of their state.
Can you please quote me where I proposed a CT? Thanks!
Trump et al have made their goals clear. There is no conspiracy there. It is only a decision as to whether you let them do what they have said they want to do, or not.
A conspiracy theory would be to say that the Obama administration is making FEMA camps to lock up dissidents.
It is an observation that Trump has called many who do nothing more than disagree with him traitors and has called for their incarceration.
He’s SAID any number of fatuous and stupid things. But so far, it’s been far more mouth-noises than formal acts. We must maintain eternal vigilance…but I don’t believe the courts are so badly corrupted that they would accept the annihilation of our democracy.
Kavanaugh, maybe… Alito and Thomas, sure. But the overall system isn’t that badly broken.
Yet. Let’s keep it that way.
The system isn’t broken but it is fractured and the current Executive is not motivated to repair the cracks. The OP posits a Trump/Roberts collusion to keep Trump in power. I think that is unlikely. However, if RGB’s health fails and Thomas retires, the earth shifts beneath our feet. Trump could put a pair of subservient toadies on the court. Perhaps Gauleiter DeSantis for one.
Then the challenge for Trump will be to precipitate an issue that deals with the election process. The kind of legal onanism that originalists love to fondle. All he has to do is stop the election and move our governing process further into chaos.
Respectfully, cite? If the President does not have the Supreme Court in his pocket, he would not control the legal system. He has no authority whatsoever - even under martial law - to prevent people from filing lawsuits in federal court; besides, the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction when a state is party to a suit. I find it highly improbable that the Court - even assuming Chief Justice Roberts harbored corrupt intent - would delay consideration of an emergency motion for preliminary injunction past December.
~Max
The United States has not formally authorized any war since 1942, and we “won” that war. If you are including other military conflicts, aside from Granada the invasion of Panama comes to mind. As to Grenada, “Was the United States almost defeated by Grenada’s local police force?”
~Max