# What happens if Trump still says no? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536 "2019-05-26T04:02:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/21 "2019-05-26T22:19:27Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Perhaps? I won’t concede it’s totally unsolvable. But yes, human beings may not be able to solve it. The fundamental problem here is what happens in cases where multiple sides disagree on what the “truth” really is. In what you’re discussing, the people ultimately tasked with enforcement are the voters. If voters would turf politicians who support clearly delusional talking points, things would be much better. Of course, the problem is that far too many voters themselves believe the delusional talking points. At some point, society will become so detached from reality that all of its systems will simply stop working. And yes, that’s going to hurt. The only way I can see to stop this is to get the delusional voters to see reality. Unfortunately, we’ve been trying to do just that for my entire life, and it’s just gotten worse. I’m at the point where I acknowledge I have no idea how to fix the underlying problem. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/22 "2019-05-27T00:48:37Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > In what you’re discussing, the people ultimately tasked with enforcement are the voters. If voters would turf politicians who support clearly delusional talking points, things would be much better. > > Of course, the problem is that far too many voters themselves believe the delusional talking points. At some point, society will become so detached from reality that all of its systems will simply stop working. > > And yes, that’s going to hurt. The only way I can see to stop this is to get the delusional voters to see reality. Unfortunately, we’ve been trying to do just that for my entire life, and it’s just gotten worse. I’m at the point where I acknowledge I have no idea how to fix the underlying problem. Well, obviously you can at least hypothetically talk about a computer algorithm that can determine what “truth” is. Hypothetically the way that algorithm would function is it would accumulate all available data and then produce a queryable model for the subject at hand. Algorithms like Kalman filters, sensor fusion, and various Baysian predictive models show such a thing is feasible, though of course current methods don’t scale well to abstract or complex questions. Unlike models that are biased by their programmers, in principle the underlying software would be completely general purpose, mathematically proven, and would not be biased towards any particular answer or political side. The interesting bit is that even if you had such a model, you would have to be very specific in what questions you ask. It would be possible to see different results dependent on your query. But even with such technology, a source of genuinely valid, objective truth - well in democracy, “doubters” in such technology get a vote like anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/23 "2019-05-27T03:06:52Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What if Trump refuses to leave office when his term is up, whether his first time or the second? It would be the same story - Supreme Court would rule he must leave, that whatever case he makes is invalid. The Senate Republicans would refuse to vote him out. Now what? No, the office of ‘President’ is held by a specific person, elected by the Electoral College. Once his elected term ends, someone else will become President. Someone else would be President, would appoint his/her own Cabinet & heads of all the Executive branch agencies, would appoint ambassadors & judges, would sign bills passed by Congress, would command the armed forces, and otherwise perform all the duties of the President. Trump could refuse to leave the White House, but so what? Eventually he would be evicted, by force if necessary. (Or he might be forced to leave by withdrawal symptoms – there isn’t any golf course at the White House.) He could try to stay there, but it would just make him look more of a fool than he is. Everybody would just ignore him, and follow the orders of the legitimate President. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/24 "2019-05-27T16:15:59Z")
**SamuelA** , those computer systems, as they become more sophisticated, tend to become more like the human brain (since that’s the only general-purpose learning machine we know of to use as a model). And we’ve already established that the human brain is vulnerable to incorrect thinking. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/25 "2019-05-27T21:36:18Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > No, the office of ‘President’ is held by a specific person, elected by the Electoral College. Once his elected term ends, someone else will become President. > > Someone else would be President, would appoint his/her own Cabinet & heads of all the Executive branch agencies, would appoint ambassadors & judges, would sign bills passed by Congress, would command the armed forces, and otherwise perform all the duties of the President. > > Trump could refuse to leave the White House, but so what? Eventually he would be evicted, by force if necessary. (Or he might be forced to leave by withdrawal symptoms – there isn’t any golf course at the White House.) He could try to stay there, but it would just make him look more of a fool than he is. Everybody would just ignore him, and follow the orders of the legitimate President. Does all this still apply during a ‘National Emergency’? I suspect some might try to say it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/26 "2019-05-27T22:46:21Z")
I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned Nixon in this thread. A very similar situation happened during the Watergate investigation. Congress investigated the president, discovered the existence of the White House Tapes and subpoenaed them. The president refused to release them, then fired the special prosecutor (rather, ordered the Attorney General to fire him, then when he resigned instead, ordered the Deputy Attorney General to do it, then when HE resigned, ordered the Solicitor General to fire him). The Supreme Court then ruled that Nixon had to release the tapes. At this point he departed from this thread’s hypothetical by caving in and releasing transcripts of the tapes. If he had continued to refuse, it’s not clear what would have happened, but Congress was perfectly willing to start impeachment proceedings, so likely he would have been out of office shortly. Also of note in this case is that a grand jury indicted a number of people, but did not indict Nixon because the special prosecutor (Jaworski) argued that a sitting president cannot be indicted. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/27 "2019-05-27T23:10:50Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Does all this still apply during a ‘National Emergency’? I suspect some might try to say it doesn’t. There is simply no mechanism in the Constitution to delay a presidential election because of a “national emergency.” We had a presidential election during the Civil War. This idea that the current president is so corrupt and will stay in office despite a defeat has been said about every president since Bill Clinton. There is simply no merit to it other than to say that we don’t like Trump. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/28 "2019-05-27T23:20:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > This idea that the current president is so corrupt and will stay in office despite a defeat has been said about every president since Bill Clinton. But have any others indicated publicly that they might? That their term should be extended? Have others had so much to lose upon leaving office (like their freedom)? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/29 "2019-05-27T23:27:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There is simply no mechanism in the Constitution to delay a presidential election because of a “national emergency.” We had a presidential election during the Civil War. > > This idea that the current president is so corrupt and will stay in office despite a defeat has been said about every president since Bill Clinton. There is simply no merit to it other than to say that we don’t like Trump. You must have missed [this.](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/05/trump-term-mueller-1302643) > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump on Sunday floated the idea of extending his constitutionally limited time in office, complaining online that two years of his first White House term were “stollen” as a result of special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. > > “I now support reparations — Trump should have 2 yrs added to his 1st term as pay back for time stolen by this corrupt failed coup,” Jerry Falwell Jr., a conservative religious leader and Trump ally, tweeted in a message reposted by the president. Or [this](https://www.wirk.com/trump-wants-to-see-permanent-u-s-president/). > [@](#): > > While at a luncheon for Republican donors at Mar-A-Lago, the President remarked that Xi Jinping being able to hold the position of China’s president for life is a step that Trump hopes America will someday follow. > > According to the Associated Press and CNN, the President said, “He’s now president for life. President for life. And he’s great. I think it’s great. Maybe we’ll give that a shot someday.” How about [this](https://www.wirk.com/trump-wants-to-see-permanent-u-s-president/)? > [@](#): > > As well as Xi, Trump has praised several world leaders who have moved to consolidate their power and extend or remove term limits, including Russia’s Vladimir Putin and Turkey’s Tayyip Erdogan. Trump, himself, has faced accusations of embracing authoritarian tendencies. And before you claim it’s a joke or misquoted or any other excuse, remember that if Obama had even hinted at such an idea, the GOP would have had The Mother Of All Shitfits. And by Trump’s logic, Obama had years of his terms stolen(note the correct spelling). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/30 "2019-05-28T01:25:27Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/31 "2019-05-28T03:18:32Z")
> [@](#): > > President Donald Trump on Sunday floated the idea of extending his constitutionally limited time in office, complaining online that two years of his first White House term were “stollen” as a result of special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. Yeah, [fruitcake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stollen) sounds like about the right description for Trump’s years as President. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/32 "2019-05-28T04:36:36Z")
So what about this alternative scenario. Trump orders the Treasury to reject the supreme courts order to hand over the tax documents, but a lower IRS bureaucrat with access to the records disobeys Trumps order and sends them to Congress anyway. Basically would/could the members of the executive branch decide to obey the court orders rather than the orders from their superiors. They could order him to be fired, but the court could also rule that the termination was illegal. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/33 "2019-05-28T13:12:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > . . . They could order him to be fired, but the court could also rule that the termination was illegal. But, at the end of the day (or sooner), either the Executive will invoke its privilege, likely on the basis of ‘national security’, to quash any challenge, or, more likely, rest comfortably knowing that the Federal Courts, and most especially the Supreme Court, have been well-seeded and are now ripe for harvest. ETA: In other words, the US judiciary system is transitioning to a new norm which, in other parts of the world, might be called corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/34 "2019-05-28T16:04:35Z")
The house could put together a police force of its own and start arresting minions who fail to comply with court orders. “I vas only followink orders” is never a justifiable excuse. How many minions are willing to spend time in jail (outside of White house staffers) to defy the law and the constitution? How likely are the FBI or Secret Service to execute an unlawful order on behalf of the president? get in a shooting war with the Congressional police? We’ve watched too many Hollywood movies full of minions - most people in those positions are rational humans who think about the future. Arrest? Disbarment for any lawyers actively violating the constitution? How many lower level civil servants or law enforcement want to base their long term career on whether Trump’s tax returns stay secret? (It’s instructive to see what happened to Bork who did Nixon’s bidding to fire the Special Prosecutor) Like any power struggle, it comes down to whose side looks like the winner. People will jump on that bandwagon. Starting from a legally more justifiable position is probably a good head start. Popularity polls help, but you need to be really sure the position is popular to defy the law. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/35 "2019-05-28T23:01:33Z")
This is probably better suited to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/36 "2019-05-29T12:25:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There is simply no mechanism in the Constitution to delay a presidential election because of a “national emergency.” We had a presidential election during the Civil War. > > This idea that the current president is so corrupt and will stay in office despite a defeat has been said about every president since Bill Clinton. There is simply no merit to it other than to say that we don’t like Trump. During the Civil War the president was not a career criminal. Bill Clinton was not a career criminal. Now that we have a career criminal in the White House supported by the dumbest 30% of the public who believe he is infallible and who will primary any Republican who would dare oppose him in any way, we have a realistic chance the fucker will ignore any and all court orders and the results of any election. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536/37 "2019-05-29T13:54:54Z")
Seize Trump Tower under civil forfeiture laws. He may not care since it’s probably leveraged and mortgaged to the maximum, but then take Mar-A-Lago, too, and that will take away his golfing privileges and the money he gets from making the Secret Service rent golf carts from him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-trump-still-says-no/834536.md?page=1)