# What happens if you kill someone in a country where it is allowed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 13, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992 "2004-10-13T13:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/21 "2004-10-13T20:35:28Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The United States has long had the ability to legislate criminal actions that take place in other countries. Thanks to everyone for the excellent replies. Now, if we change the question to a state-to-state issue, how does that change the answer? That is, if I do something that is legal in California and illegal in Texas, and I am a resident of Texas, can Texas do anything about it when I return to Texas? The laws from state to state aren’t that different today on the “basic” issues like murder, pedophilia, rape, etc. But, let’s assume that in the future some states’ laws diverge quite a bit. Can states keep their residents from “misbehaving” in other states? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/22 "2004-10-13T20:48:59Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I think Civics 102 says that this is jurisdictional. For instance, if you murder someone on federal property I believe that is a federal crime. IANAL. Did you notice where I said “ **ordinary** murder?” The OP wasn’t asking about going to the US Embassy in Thailand to commit sex crimes. If a US citizen murdered somone in Bangkok (sp?) it could only be prosecuted by the Thai government. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/23 "2004-10-13T20:53:40Z")
I think that’s a more interesting question because states (i.e., the 50 states) are sorta sovereign and sorta not. In general, Texas probably couldn’t do anything. Assume Texas has the same ability to invoke extraterritorial jurisdiction (at least w/r/t to some of the principles I laid out above) as a nation does insofar as that exercise of jurisdiction doesn’t conflict with the limits placed on Texas by its status as one of many states in the Union. For one thing, the Full Faith & Credit Clause requires Texas to accept most official actions of the California government, so if you did something in California that restulted in some sort of state proclamation, Texas would probably be forced to accept it. (There’s an exception for issues that run contrary to Texas public policy, but let’s leave that off for now.) Even w/o a state action that would invoke the FF&CC, the federal scheme anticipates – demands, even – that states should be allowed to set their own policies and that people can travel from state to state to decide which they like best. As such, states are going to be more limited in the exercise of their jurisdiction extraterritorially. That said (and since we talked about sex tourism upthread), taking a (willing) 17-year-old from a consent-18 state to a consent-16 state to have sex with her is probably a violation of the Mann Act. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/24 "2004-10-13T21:01:42Z")
My last post was a reply to **Polerius**. I agree with **Padeye** that in the case of an “ordinary” murder of a Thai by a U.S. national in Thailand is not a subject of federal jurisdiction. However, there are enough exceptions (MEJA, if the victim had nexus with the U.S.) that we must be careful about overgeneralizing. Plus, as this discussion has shown, the U.S. could take jurisdiction of these types of crimes (under nationality jurisdiction) by passing a law that allows for it (as it did with MEJA or, in the case of sex, the Protect Act). The U.S. is not powerless to give itself jurisdiction – it’s just that it has not chosen to do so yet. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/25 "2004-10-13T21:11:18Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > That said (and since we talked about sex tourism upthread), taking a (willing) 17-year-old from a consent-18 state to a consent-16 state to have sex with her is probably a violation of the Mann Act. But if you found yourself on vacation in a consent-16 state, and you met a 17-year old and had sex with her, your consent-18 state couldn’t do anything about that, correct? What if someone organizes bus trips for men to go to a consent-16 state to have sex with 16-year olds (non-prostitutes). Is the consent-18 state going to tolerate that? Also, if Roe-vs-Wade is overturned and abortion is legal in some states and illegal in others, could the no-abortion states do anything to stop people from organizing bus trips to pro-abortion states to get abortions? Could they do anything to stop private individuals from going to another state to get an abortion? I’m not saying that they would want to, but from a legal standpoint, could they? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/26 "2004-10-13T22:15:15Z")
Haven’t some states had laws that forbid leaving the state to do something that’s illegal there? I think California has, or had, such a law, but I can’t find the section in FindLaw. It could be something I remember reading in a 1930 copy of the CA Penal Code. My guess is that the law was aimed at those who travel to Mexico for the purpose of underage drinking (or any drinking, during Prohibition). Of course, if on the return trip you show up at the border drunk, they’d have you for DUI anyway, but the law about leaving the state would give prosecutors another element in the charge, perhaps for bargaining purposes. Sixty or seventy years ago, Mexico also had legal casino gambling, and the law would have probably been applied in that context as well. As for killing someone, it’s hard to imagine a place where killing anyone, apart from those condemned under what passes for due legal process in that country, is legal. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/27 "2004-10-14T01:48:33Z")
Don’t police in California routinely arrest and charge 18, 19 & 20-year-olds on their way back from Tijuana (where they presumably went to drink)? Furthermore, didn’t police back in The Day arrest carloads of teenagers returning from drinking binges in neighboring states. For example, say the drinking age was 18 at one time in Illinois, while it was 21 in Wisconsin. So teenagers from WI would descend upon bars in northern Illinois, then get caught by the WI law when they went home. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/28 "2004-10-14T08:54:55Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Furthermore, didn’t police back in The Day arrest carloads of teenagers returning from drinking binges in neighboring states. For example, say the drinking age was 18 at one time in Illinois, while it was 21 in Wisconsin. So teenagers from WI would descend upon bars in northern Illinois, then get caught by the WI law when they went home. So, this seems to imply that if Roe-vs-Wade is overturned and abortion is legal in some states and illegal in others, the no-abortion states could take action against their residents who go to other states to have an abortion, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ozchick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f6c823/32.png) [@Ozchick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ozchick)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/29 "2004-10-14T09:21:09Z")
This debate really highlights the need for an International Criminal Court with some teeth. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/30 "2004-10-14T09:45:47Z")
“Commerce between the states” is a \federal\ matter, which I think would make it very difficult for state governments to prohibit people crossing state lines in order to find a more conducive legal environment for any activity. I don’t know, but if police did target carload of youths returning from places where drinking was legal for them, any legal action taken would still have to be on the basis of something unlawful done in the state, such as a drink/driving offence. There’s also the point that such laws would be largely unenforceable in practice when it came to something like abortion. What, pregnancy tests for all women at the state line? And again coming back in? “Please explaing how you were pregant when you left yesterday and you’re not today, Ma’am”? There’s also the political will question; there might be vocal minorities calling for such laws (and ignoring the constitutiional and practical limitations). But my guess is that a much larger number of voters (including many broadly pro-life voters) would be revolted at the idea, and the legislators would know this. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/31 "2004-10-14T16:59:43Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, this seems to imply that if Roe-vs-Wade is overturned and abortion is legal in some states and illegal in others, the no-abortion states could take action > against their residents who go to other states to have an abortion, correct? Not necessarily. Now that I’ve had time to thinkg about it some more, I believe that CA cops arresting teenagers on their way back from Tijuana nab them on public intoxication charges (even if they’re passengers in a car with a sober driver). I guess the thing to do is spend the night in Tijuana. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/32 "2004-10-18T16:59:34Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > But if you found yourself on vacation in a consent-16 state, and you met a 17-year old and had sex with her, your consent-18 state couldn’t do anything about that, correct? Although I’ve not studied the Mann Act, I believe this is correct. > [@](#): > > _What if someone organizes bus trips for men to go to a consent-16 state to have sex with 16-year olds (non-prostitutes). Is the consent-18 state going to tolerate that?_ Iiiinteresting. I don’t believe the home state could do anything. Of course, this is exactly the type of thing that would create a political shitstorm so 1) don’t count on the home state not to try and 2) expect the _target_ state to ban such activity, perhaps by raising the AoC generally. > [@](#): > > _Also, if Roe-vs-Wade is overturned and abortion is legal in some states and illegal in others, could the no-abortion states do anything to stop people from organizing bus trips to pro-abortion states to get abortions?_ Same as above – I don’t believe that the non-abortion states could do anything. The federal government could, of course, ban such transport. (Indeed, Congress considered a bill to do something similar in the proposed Child Custody Protection Act, which, had it passed, would have prevented people from transporting a minor across state lines to get an abortion while avoiding her home state’s parental consent laws.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Hadrian0117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Hadrian0117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hadrian0117)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/33 "2004-10-24T23:01:58Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Well, I know that if you have sex with a minor in another country, even if it is legal there, you can be prosecuted for it in the States. This law is there to discourage child prostitution and sex tourism…so unless you were going to some preschool bordello in Indonesia I don’t know how they could easily catch you boffing some 14 year old foreigner. Not that I would try that or anything :eek: But if a state were for some reason to lower their age of consent to say 12; the feds wouldn’t be able to prosectue you unless you crossed state lines but if you went to a foreign land they could? ---
**Author:** ![kski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/85e7bf/32.png) [@kski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kski)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/34 "2004-10-25T11:14:50Z")
I’ve never heard of any country where it’s okay to just kill someone. Reguardless, If you are of sound mind, killing someone will affect your conscience, it doesn’t matter what country you’re in or what “their” laws are. We have our own internal, civil, humane, law, which of course can sadly be corrupted. But woe, what a question! Are you planning on taking someone to another country and taking them out!!! ---
**Author:** ![Hadrian0117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Hadrian0117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hadrian0117)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992/35 "2004-10-25T15:58:42Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > There is no country where you can just kill people willy-nilly. Now, there _are_ countries where you could, in theory, participate in a legally sanctioned killing. There are many such countries, _including_ the United States. IIRC, we put hundreds of prisoners to death every year, and someone has to do the dirty deed. I don’t know of any cases where a foreign national has served in this capacity, or where an American has served in this capacity in another country, but if there were such a case I can assure you neither the U.S. nor the foreign country in question is going to do anything, since, by definition (and by the rules of your OP), the killing was quite legal. > > Perhaps you mean to say, what happens when an American does something in another country that is perfectly legal there, but is illegal in the US? > > Again, nothing happens. For example, it is perfectly legal to smoke marijuana in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. American tourists go there all the time and many partake in smoking pot. The US government does not and cannot do anything about it, as this involes the laws of a foreign country. In Uruguay dueling is perfectly legal provided both parties are over 21 and registered organ donors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-if-you-kill-someone-in-a-country-where-it-is-allowed/268992.md?page=1)