# What happens in a post-Christian society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041 "2014-05-09T11:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/41 "2014-05-12T00:54:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > One can look to Japan and see that only 1% of the population is Christian and they have less crime than any other country. It may have more to do with the fact that Japan is probably the most homogeneous among the advanced countries of the world. The biggest _practical_ concerns of a post-Christian society may very well be the weakening of the concept of sanctity of life (which is not necessarily inevitable as there are plenty of pro-life atheists and agnostics and a strict literal reading of the Bible does not necessarily teach that personhood begins at conception). People have to remember that it was only after Christianity became dominant in the Roman Empire that the gladitorial games were banned and the old Classical practice of infanticide became discouraged (although there were some non-Christian Stoics who spoke out against it beforehand). In modern times we’ve seen it to a limited extent in the Groningen Protocal, intellectuals like Peter Singer, and parents who kill their handicapped children being let off with light sentences by sympathetic juries. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/42 "2014-05-12T00:56:26Z")
In a post-Christian society, post-Christians have well-below-replacement birth rates. As a result, now-small groups of Christians, with higher birth rates – for the US, think Amish and Mormons – will eventually create a post-post-Christian society. Soon? No. Eventually? That’s my prediction, albeit a safe one since, at age 59, I won’t live long enough to know if I’m right. The Jews are ahead of the curve here in combining rapid mainstream secularlization with a boom in the Orthodox population. Here’s how it is working: > **[Orthodox Population Grows Faster Than First Figures in Pew #JewishAmerica Study](https://forward.com/news/187429/orthodox-population-grows-faster-than-first-figure/)** > > The Orthodox population is growing even faster than earlier reports from the Pew Research Center’s recent survey of American Jews suggested. A new analysis of data from Pew finds that 27% of Jews younger than 18 live in Orthodox households. That’s a... ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/43 "2014-05-12T01:05:18Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > In a post-Christian society, post-Christians have well-below-replacement birth rates. As a result, now-small groups of Christians, with higher birth rates – for the US, think Amish and Mormons – will eventually create a post-post-Christian society. Soon? No. Eventually? That’s my prediction, albeit a safe one since, at age 59, I won’t live long enough to know if I’m right. > > The Jews are ahead of the curve here in combining rapid mainstream secularlization with a boom in the Orthodox population. Here’s how it is working: > > [Orthodox Population Grows Faster Than First Figures in Pew #JewishAmerica Study – The Forward](http://forward.com/articles/187429/orthodox-population-grows-faster-than-first-figure/?p=all) However, the thing is a large proportion of these high-birth rate demographic groups may either liberalize or apostatize totally, thus not carrying with the trend of high birth-rates. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/44 "2014-05-12T01:10:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > L. Sprague & Catherine de Camp’s view is that tribal wizards really do believe in their own powers; but they also know them to be not always entirely reliable, therefore they always have prepared excuses. E.g., on casting a spell to assure a good hunt, a witch doctor might proclaim, “Let no man go in unto his wife for three days!” If the hunt failed, it was always plausible – **even to the witch doctor** – that some men had broken the ban. Hmm. I’ll admit, that lets a true believer offer sincere excuses that conveniently mirror what charlatans would knowingly say – but while it makes the former a viable option, it doesn’t at all rule out the latter. Still, it’s an intriguing point, and I now intend to find a copy of their book and see what else they have to say; thanks for the recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/45 "2014-05-12T01:16:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hmm. I’ll admit, that lets a true believer offer sincere excuses that conveniently mirror what charlatans would knowingly say – but while it makes the former a viable option, it doesn’t at all rule out the latter. Still, it’s an intriguing point, and I now intend to find a copy of their book and see what else they have to say; thanks for the recommendation. It is a very readable, entertaining book, and the chapter-epigraphs are just perfect! I recall this one from the chapter on alchemy: He’s worked all his life (and he’s terribly old) On a wonderful spell that says, "Lo and behold! “Your nursery-fender is gold!” And it’s gold! (Or the tongs, or the rod for the curtain.) But somehow he hasn’t got hold of it quite, Or the liquid he pours on it first isn’t right, And that’s why he works at it night after night 'Til he knows he can do it for certain! – A.A. Milne ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/46 "2014-05-12T01:49:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > However, the thing is a large proportion of these high-birth rate demographic groups may either liberalize or apostatize totally, thus not carrying with the trend of high birth-rates. Some of them will, and those will die out. From an evolutionary standpoint, the invention of reliable cheap birth control has to have a profound impact on the composition our species. In the short to medium term, it probably means less Christianity. America’s biggest Protestant sect, the Southern Baptist Convention, not only has a lot of dropouts, but also has sub-replacement fertility. In the longest run, any group with sub-replacement fertility, whether it be the Southern Baptists or the atheists, can’t survive. The Amish impress me as particularly resistant to both the low-birth-rate and secularization trends. Of course, they are such a small group today that it would take a couple hundred years for them to become dominant, it that indeed happens. See: [http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/08/exploding-amish-population-bubble/2795/](http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/08/exploding-amish-population-bubble/2795/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/47 "2014-05-12T01:55:14Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > From an evolutionary standpoint, the invention of reliable cheap birth control has to have a profound impact on the composition our species. In the short to medium term, it probably means less Christianity. America’s biggest Protestant sect, the Southern Baptist Convention, not only has a lot of dropouts, but also has sub-replacement fertility. In the longest run, any group with sub-replacement fertility, whether it be the Southern Baptists or the atheists, can’t survive. There’s always the [Quiverfulls](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull) . . . but I doubt they can secure the movement-loyalty of their offspring. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/48 "2014-05-12T04:09:17Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Is that how Cro-Magnon has been depicted in cartoons? Flintstones. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/49 "2014-05-12T04:13:16Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Flintstones. Awwk, it’s a living! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/50 "2014-05-12T04:34:21Z")
For me, the best thing about a post-Christian society is not the total absence of religious belief, but by definition the absence of a dominating, pervasive, normalizing belief that inhibits all others. Humans will probably always believe in something, and I can live with that just fine. But what I don’t want to live with is a cabal of religious zealots telling me theirs is the only way AND having the power to force it on others. Without Christianity, assuming secularism takes over, things from as small as vulgarity and public prayer to things as life-changing as abortion, gay marriage, or the death penalty doesn’t automatically assume one right side anymore. That’s what we should hope for whether or not we become post-Christian, but its much easier imagining those things not having as powerful an effect on public officials and public life without Christians to push their views on everyone ---
**Author:** ![Shearer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@Shearer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shearer)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/51 "2014-05-12T17:22:00Z")
Come to Britain and you’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/52 "2014-05-12T18:12:39Z")
> [@Shearer](#): > > Come to Britain and you’ll see. In fact, Britain seems now to be **post** -post-Christian. From [_The Lion and the Unicorn,_](http://georgeorwellnovels.com/essays/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/) by George Orwell (1941): > [@](#): > > But in all societies the common people must live to some extent AGAINST the existing order. The genuinely popular culture of England is something that goes on beneath the surface, unofficially and more or less frowned on by the authorities. One thing one notices if one looks directly at the common people, especially in the big towns, is that they are not puritanical. They are inveterate gamblers, drink as much beer as their wages will permit, are devoted to bawdy jokes, and use probably the foulest language in the world. They have to satisfy these tastes in the face of astonishing, hypocritical laws (licensing laws, lottery acts, etc. etc.) which are designed to interfere with everybody but in practice allow everything to happen. **Also, the common people are without definite religious belief, and have been so for centuries.** The Anglican Church never had a real hold on them, it was simply a preserve of the landed gentry, and the Nonconformist sects only influenced minorities. **And yet they have retained a deep tinge of Christian feeling, while almost forgetting the name of Christ.** The power-worship which is the new religion of Europe, and which has infected the English intelligentsia, has never touched the common people. They have never caught up with power politics. The ‘realism’ which is preached in Japanese and Italian newspapers would horrify them. One can learn a good deal about the spirit of England from the comic coloured postcards that you see in the windows of cheap stationers’ shops. These things are a sort of diary upon which the English people have unconsciously recorded themselves. Their old-fashioned outlook, their graded snobberies, their mixture of bawdiness and hypocrisy, their extreme gentleness, their deeply moral attitude to life, are all mirrored there. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/53 "2014-05-15T06:50:21Z")
Religious sentiment just takes on new shapes and forms, is all. More and more people self-designate as “spiritual but not religious,” and/or pick-and-choose bits and pieces from different religious traditions. Over here (Denmark specifically, Europe generally) you fairly often meet people who vaguely believe in god / gods / angels / spirits of some sort, believe that Jesus was probably a decent chap / OK moral teacher, but firmly reject “Churchianity,” consider “organised religion” an abomination, never pray, worship, or for that matter even speak about any of this unless prodded, confronted or drunk / high. Morality, criminality and behaviour all around generally will probably stay the same, no matter how far a society’s process of “post-Christianification” goes. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=703734) thread on behavioural differences between theists and atheists, **DSeid** quoted the summary of a study like so: > [@](#): > > Citing several studies in moral psychology, the authors highlight the finding that despite differences in, _or even an absence of,_ religious backgrounds, individuals show no difference in moral judgments for unfamiliar moral dilemmas. The research suggests that intuitive judgments of right and wrong seem to operate independently of explicit religious commitments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/54 "2014-05-16T22:05:23Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Over here (Denmark specifically, Europe generally) you fairly often meet people who vaguely believe in god / gods / angels / spirits of some sort, believe that Jesus was probably a decent chap / OK moral teacher, but firmly reject “Churchianity,” consider “organised religion” an abomination, never pray, worship, or for that matter even speak about any of this unless prodded, confronted or drunk / high. Meanwhile, in Iceland, people still believe in elves. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/55 "2014-05-21T11:37:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, they do have other religions, and the next life is a big deal in Buddhism if not in Shinto. Yes, they do, but I think the thread is about if Christianity as not in the world. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/56 "2014-05-21T11:45:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It may have more to do with the fact that Japan is probably the most homogeneous among the advanced countries of the world. > > The biggest _practical_ concerns of a post-Christian society may very well be the weakening of the concept of sanctity of life (which is not necessarily inevitable as there are plenty of pro-life atheists and agnostics and a strict literal reading of the Bible does not necessarily teach that personhood begins at conception). People have to remember that it was only after Christianity became dominant in the Roman Empire that the gladitorial games were banned and the old Classical practice of infanticide became discouraged (although there were some non-Christian Stoics who spoke out against it beforehand). In modern times we’ve seen it to a limited extent in the Groningen Protocal, intellectuals like Peter Singer, and parents who kill their handicapped children being let off with light sentences by sympathetic juries. Pro-life must also be in favor of the already born, and look to responsible parenthood, and the life of the already born Mother and the children they have. Many co called pro-life people are just for the unborn but do not want to support through taxes any that are poor. One can look to Haiti and see the extreme poverty that causes a lot of deaths by trying to get to The US and other countries by boat and die on the way! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/57 "2014-05-21T11:51:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Religious sentiment just takes on new shapes and forms, is all. > > More and more people self-designate as “spiritual but not religious,” and/or pick-and-choose bits and pieces from different religious traditions. > > Over here (Denmark specifically, Europe generally) you fairly often meet people who vaguely believe in god / gods / angels / spirits of some sort, believe that Jesus was probably a decent chap / OK moral teacher, but firmly reject “Churchianity,” consider “organised religion” an abomination, never pray, worship, or for that matter even speak about any of this unless prodded, confronted or drunk / high. > > Morality, criminality and behaviour all around generally will probably stay the same, no matter how far a society’s process of “post-Christianification” goes. > > In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=703734) thread on behavioural differences between theists and atheists, **DSeid** quoted the summary of a study like so: I would add what I posted before the world didn’t end before Christianity. and that native Indians seemed to survive before it became the Majority religion. And even Christianity is very divided. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/58 "2014-05-21T12:14:45Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Morality, criminality and behaviour all around generally will probably stay the same, no matter how far a society’s process of “post-Christianification” goes. [More likely](http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/), people will become more moral and civilized. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041/59 "2014-05-24T00:31:42Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Pro-life must also be in favor of the already born, and look to responsible parenthood, and the life of the already born Mother and the children they have. Many co called pro-life people are just for the unborn but do not want to support through taxes any that are poor. One can look to Haiti and see the extreme poverty that causes a lot of deaths by trying to get to The US and other countries by boat and die on the way! Absolutely and this’s why I’m a Democrat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-in-a-post-christian-society/688041.md?page=2)