# What happens the day after Palestinian Independence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008 "2013-05-22T13:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/1 "2013-05-22T13:06:30Z")
There will have to be an eventual process in which there is a two state solution (with removal of settlements clearly defined borders) However, this lead me wondering, how do the Israelis and Palestinians or the Arab world for that matter, reconcile or work out a process in which both communities can move forward with overcoming the legacy of violence? What’s the Palestinian plan for building up their state, diplomatic relations, economic growth etc etc? How does Israeli relations with the Arab world change? What would happen to some of the ire based on Israeli injustices? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/2 "2013-05-22T13:26:49Z")
Isn’t the evidence already in on that? The Gaza Strip has been effectively independent since what, 2005? The people therein destroyed anything useful the Israelis left behind, dug tunnels for smuggling weapons, and launched rockets at any Israeli population center they can reach. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/3 "2013-05-22T13:45:08Z")
The day after independence, the new Palestinian Republic gives Israel a casus belli, Israel declares war, invades, smashes a bunch of stuff, kills a lot of people including the Palestinian leadership (except those who flee the country), leaves, a lot of U.N. goods and peacekeepers come in to “stabilize” the place, and if the Palestinians are lucky, they stay in Palestine about as long as they stayed in Cypress, i.e. long enough for a new generation to be born during a shaky but lasting cease-fire. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/4 "2013-05-22T13:53:49Z")
Cypress? Like, the tree? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/5 "2013-05-22T14:09:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Cypress? Like, the tree? Unfortunately, the Turks cut off the top third of the tree. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/6 "2013-05-22T14:09:39Z")
Maybe he means Lebanon. No, wait, that’s cedar. If Palestine becomes independent, and Israel recognizes it, then relations have improved to the point where a war the next day won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/7 "2013-05-22T14:19:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe he means Lebanon. No, wait, that’s cedar. > > If Palestine becomes independent, and Israel recognizes it, then relations have improved to the point where a war the next day won’t happen. Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was thinking. The Israeli’s aren’t going to recognize Palestine unless things are entirely differen than they are now ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/8 "2013-05-22T14:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > If Palestine becomes independent, and Israel recognizes it, then relations have improved to the point where a war the next day won’t happen. It’s just that, whenever I ask the question of ‘Ok Palestine gets independence, it’s still going to have Israel next door and they’re both going to have to deal with a bitter legacy of conflict, how do they do that?’ It draws blank expressions on peoples faces, it seems to me that people are so caught up in the present conflict, that they’re ignoring the actual vision of peace they want and have no credible idea of what happens next. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/9 "2013-05-22T14:23:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > There will have to be an eventual process in which there is a two state solution (with removal of settlements clearly defined borders) However, this lead me wondering, how do the Israelis and Palestinians or the Arab world for that matter, reconcile or work out a process in which both communities can move forward with overcoming the legacy of violence? Short answer: They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/10 "2013-05-22T14:44:11Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It’s just that, whenever I ask the question of ‘Ok Palestine gets independence, it’s still going to have Israel next door and they’re both going to have to deal with a bitter legacy of conflict, how do they do that?’ It draws blank expressions on peoples faces, it seems to me that people are so caught up in the present conflict, that they’re ignoring the actual vision of peace they want and have no credible idea of what happens next. Thing is, the grant of Palestinian statehood will probably not make a game-changing difference - it will bring an easing of certain tensions, it is true, but there will be plenty of grounds for further conflict in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/11 "2013-05-22T14:56:09Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, the grant of Palestinian statehood will probably not make a game-changing difference - it will bring an easing of certain tensions, it is true, but there will be plenty of grounds for further conflict in the future. I understand that, but its evident here that there is no clear vision for bringing about a reconciliation, it just seems each side is obsessed with each others defeat, and with no vision for a future where both peoples exist in normality what is there? > [@](#): > > **Brain Glutton** > Short answer: They don’t. So it’s conflict in perpetuity? Didn’t plenty of people in Turkey with the Kurdish situation say the same thing? (I know the conflict isn’t over, however they have made tentative steps on both sides to move forward, somewhat) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/12 "2013-05-22T15:08:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, the grant of Palestinian statehood It has to be _granted_? By whom? ISTM a far more interesting question would be what happens when Palestine \*declares \*independence, with the tensions being what they are today. My expectation would be that it won’t make much difference, Israel won’t recognize it anyway and the occupation and settlements will continue under some pretext. **cmkeller** , I do seem to recall the destruction of Gaza’s infrastructure involving mainly Israeli bulldozers. Perhaps I’m mistaken, that the locals did it all to themselves for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/13 "2013-05-22T16:52:51Z")
Elvis, you’re partially correct: residences were destroyed by the Israelis. But commercial and public buildings were left intact, and many of those were destroyed by the Palestinians after the forced evacuation of the Israeli settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/14 "2013-05-22T17:20:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Cypress? Like, the tree? How embarrassing. Cyprus is what I meant, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/15 "2013-05-22T17:38:40Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I understand that, but its evident here that there is no clear vision for bringing about a reconciliation, it just seems each side is obsessed with each others defeat, and with no vision for a future where both peoples exist in normality what is there? Not so. You have to look at the wider picture. The Arab-Israeli thing is part of the general set of relations in that part of the world - in which it is hardly an uncommon occurance for various ethnic/religious/national groups to be at odds with the others, where borders (or even the makeup of countries) are in dispute. Look at Lebanon, Syria, Iraq; the troubles between the Coptic minority and the Muslim majority in Egypt; the tension between Palestinians and ethnic Jordanians in Jordan … the list goes on. Pretty well every single country in the region is beset by similar problems - we just hear more about the Arab/Israeli thing. It is not even the cause of the most devistating series of wars in the region - the Iran/Iraq war killed more people than all of the Arab-Israeli wars by a factor of something like 10. Palestinian statehood has become talismanic, but its achievement would not change the dynamic all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/16 "2013-05-22T17:45:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How embarrassing. Cyprus is what I meant, of course. When were Palestinians in Cyprus? I mean, I know there were \*Jewish \*refugees in Cyprus in 1948, but I never heard of Palestinians there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/17 "2013-05-22T17:47:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It has to be _granted_? By whom? > > ISTM a far more interesting question would be what happens when Palestine \*declares \*independence, with the tensions being what they are today. My expectation would be that it won’t make much difference, Israel won’t recognize it anyway and the occupation and settlements will continue under some pretext. Your “far more interesting question” has already been answered. Palestine has, in point of fact, “declared independance” - in 1988! > **[Palestinian Declaration of Independence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Declaration_of_Independence)** > > The Palestinian Declaration of Independence formally established the State of Palestine, and was written by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish and proclaimed by Yasser Arafat on 15 November 1988 (5 Rabiʽ al-Thani 1409) in Algiers, Algeria. It had previously been adopted by the Palestinian National Council (PNC), the legislative body of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), by a vote of 253 in favour, 46 against, and 10 abstaining. It was read at the closing session of the 19th PNC to a st O... In order to be recognized as a state, one needs other countries to recognize it as one. Practically, this means UN approval, although of course there are plenty of controversies nonetheless. More fundamentally, exactly _what_ would be declared a state? The WB and Gaza are governed by different entities. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/18 "2013-05-22T18:13:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > When were Palestinians in Cyprus? I mean, I know there were \*Jewish \*refugees in Cyprus in 1948, but I never heard of Palestinians there. Spent 3 weeks in Aiya Napa larging it Summer '09. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/19 "2013-05-22T18:28:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > When were Palestinians in Cyprus? I mean, I know there were \*Jewish \*refugees in Cyprus in 1948, but I never heard of Palestinians there. I wasn’t suggesting Palestinians had ever been in Cyprus. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008/20 "2013-05-22T18:50:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > ISTM a far more interesting question would be what happens when Palestine \*declares \*independence Even more interesting would be what would happen if people posting in these kinds of threads were aware of cutting edge, breaking developments. Ya know, the type of cutting edge, breaking events that occurred a quarter of a century ago. ith the tensions being what they are today. My expectation would be that it won’t make much difference, Israel won’t recognize it anyway and the occupation and settlements will continue under some pretext. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > , I do seem to recall the destruction of Gaza’s infrastructure involving mainly Israeli bulldozers. Perhaps I’m mistaken, that the locals did it all to themselves for some reason. Can’t say enough about knowing basic facts before you post. [Greenhouses: destroyed by Palestinians.](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/) Remember t[hat sewage system in Gaza that ended up killing people in a flood of liquid shit](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6498835.stm)? Yeah,[folks were taking pipes for the sewage system and using them for rockets, instead.](http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Israeli-metal-used-for-Kassam-rockets) You’re also remembering something that you imagined. Gaza’s infrastructure (do you know what that word means, Elvis?) was not bulldozed by Israel. Israeli buildings were. Of course, the synogogues which remained were then bulldozed by the Palestinians, but that’s neither here nor there in regards to your fiction about Israel bulldozing Gaza’s infrastructure. Of course, even those groups most critical of Israel are able to understand the facts of the matter. You might want to read up on 'em. [ > [@](#): > > In September 2005, Israel completed implementation of its Disengagement Plan from the Gaza Strip, which included dismantling all the settlements there, evacuating the settlers to Israel and withdrawing the military. After the plan was fully implemented, Israel issued an order declaring the end of its military rule in the Gaza Strip, indicating it was no longer responsible for the safety and well-being of the population in Gaza. > > The military withdrawal and the dismantling of the settlements led to considerably improved freedom of movement for Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. ]([http://www.btselem.org/gaza\_strip](http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip)) So, just to be clear, you’re upset that Israeli’s actions allowed considerably improved freedom of movement in Gaza? Or do you have a reason at all? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-the-day-after-palestinian-independence/659008.md?page=2)