# What happens to societies with majority non-religious people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183 "2013-08-26T05:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/21 "2013-08-27T01:23:58Z")
One thing to keep in mind is that just a society has become less religious over the last generation or two doesn’t mean that they are no longer influenced by cultural values/beliefs of the old religions. My husband was raised atheist (in the sense that they just never taught him to believe in anything in particular, not that they actively tried to convince him there is no God). However, I do think that some of the values his parents raised him with were probably products of the fact that his parents were raised in religion. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/22 "2013-08-27T01:28:26Z")
There are variances of non-religion. Some people are hostile to religion, some are apathetic, some are agnostic, etc. According to this > **[List of countries by irreligion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country)** > > Irreligion, which may include deism, agnosticism, ignosticism, anti-religion, atheism, skepticism, ietsism, spiritual but not religious, freethought, anti-theism, apatheism, non-belief, pandeism, secular humanism, non-religious theism, pantheism, panentheism, and New age, varies in the countries around the world. According to reports from the Worldwide Independent Network/Gallup International Association's (WIN/GIA) four global polls: in 2005, 77% were a religious person and 4% were "convinced... The rates of irreligion are 50%+ in most of the west. Even the US is 36%. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/23 "2013-08-27T04:09:20Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > According to this > > [List of countries by irreligion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_by_country) > > The rates of irreligion are 50%+ in most of the west. Even the US is 36%. According to wikipedia, Canada is pushing 61% irreligiosity, and well all know what a hell-hole it is! Accordingly, France is at 75% irreligiosity. Way to go. But Denmark, at 83%. Wow, horrifying place it must be! And there’s Afghanistan, at 3% irreligiosity. Clearly, it _must_ be God’s paradise on Earth To reduce snarkiness slightly, it does appear that U.S. is the nicest place to live among countries with under 50% irreligiosity, unless Kazakhstan is a nicer country than I think it is. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/24 "2013-08-27T05:18:09Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > The biggest fear I have is that decisions that many of us simply rest in a higher authority whatever that may be will be made by men who feel a very real responsibility to steer the ship. In most cases I am sure this would work out fine but a very charismatic, eloquent speaker may very well get enough support from the masses to do things we would normally think unthinkable. Many of these very unthinkable things could be based on very sound logic if you were only considering financial and social implications. Adding religion to financial and social decisions is certainly no guarantee that charismatic, eloquent speakers won’t get people to do unthinkable things. Quite the opposite actually, especially when they speak for a “higher authority” they alone can interpret and appeal to their “we’re right, you’re wrong” base. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/25 "2013-08-27T07:59:46Z")
Having trouble with your question. Howard Roark was an atheist but nevertheless a deeply religious man. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/26 "2013-08-27T08:48:06Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I tend to be annoyed when people start throwing up the Scandinavian countries as examples in issues of public policy, but for a question like this one, they’re quite appropriate. Can’t speak for the perfidious Swedes, but I think most people just don’t understand Denmark when it comes to religion – or most other things. Danes are probably a lot more religious than you think, it’s just that public display such as church attendance is not a big part of it. Both on account of general national character and because of the very influential teaching of [Grundvig](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._F._S._Grundtvig). Meanwhile 80% of the population are members of just a single church, even though it costs them money. There are also arguments that the whole Scandinavian welfare model is a realization of Lutheran Christianity, certainly Danes reach morally to such issues as helping the poor, aid, abortion, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/27 "2013-08-27T09:23:53Z")
According to wikipedia about 7% of Australians go to church. Only about 22% indicated that they have no religion on a census form. Instead they largely mark “catholic” or “protestant”. My view for what it is worth is that this is essentially a cultural not religious indication. IME many (most, I think) Australians might, in some sense, identify themselves as “catholic” for example because that’s what their family background is, in some general sense. They may have attended or their parents may have attended catholic schools, say. But they are not in any active sense religious and may well not believe in any god. I know very, very few people who believe in any god, but know heaps of nominal “catholics”. Needless to say, Australian society is not much different in morality from the more religions western democracies such as the US. My view is that this is unsurprising: religion’s claim to be the source of morality is simply a conceit. People the world over adhere to very common ideas of basic morality no matter what religion they do or don’t belong to. It fits the facts far better to assume religion co-opted existing morality than to assume morality sprang from religion. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/28 "2013-08-27T09:56:48Z")
North Korea manages very well eschewing any belief in the supernatural, whilst being actively hostile to all organized religion. ---
**Author:** ![Casparlatete](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/casparlatete/32/3377_2.png) [@Casparlatete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casparlatete)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/29 "2013-08-27T10:02:13Z")
Originally Posted by IMfez (the OP) What changes can be attributed to the mass loss of religious belief? Look around you. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/30 "2013-08-27T10:39:25Z")
Not just in Scandinavia, but in most Western European countries atheism is the default setting. Unless you state otherwise, people will assume you are an atheist. Seeing the crusade many religious Americans hold against atheism is incredibly… not just scary, but incredibly misguided. Holland and Germany, Norway and Denmark, have been atheistic countries for decades now. And nothing bad has happened. These countries score higher on several happiness meters. They have a lower rate of crime, poverty, abortions and teenage pregnancy then the USA does. People are spiritually aware, with or without (a kind of) God, and feel connected to their community. Watching people feel all moral for wanting to “keep their kids away from atheists destroying their faith”… To me, it is as absurd as when they would claim that you can’t be a moral happy person and have brown eyes. Or red hair. Or like country music. Or eat spaghetti. :: shakes head:: I have also quoted often on these boards the statistics on teenage pregnancies and abortions: The TLDR version is: "Religiously inspired abstinism does _not_ reduce teenage sex and pregnancies. You know what does? Freely available sex-education that demystifies and de-emphasises teenage sex. As well as freely available birth control paired with factual information on how to use it. > [@Teenage Sex in Northern Europe vs North America](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/teenage-sex-in-northern-europe-vs-north-america/441695/15): > > These [statistics](http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm) might be of interest: > > **Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:** > > ``` > Boys Girls > > ``` > > Belgium 61 63 > Netherlands 58 62 > Germany 33 28 > Norway 33 25 > U K. 24 23 > France 9 25 > United States 12 16 > > **Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using birth control:** > Germany 95% > United Kingdom 92 > Netherlands 88 > Norway 87 > Sweden 79 > Denmark 70 > United States 56 > > **Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:** > > United States 98.0 > United Kingdom 46.6 > Norway 40.2 > Canada 38.6 > Finland 32.1 > Sweden 28.3 > Denmark 27.9 > Netherlands 12.1 > Japan 10.5 > > **Total teen abortions per 1,000 teenagers:** > > United States 44.4 > Norway 21.1 > Sweden 19.6 > Denmark 18.2 > Finland 17.9 > United Kingdom 16.9 > Canada 16.2 > Japan 5.9 > Netherlands 5.5 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/31 "2013-08-27T10:49:25Z")
Also, like said upthread for Denmark, religious feelings can easily take other forms then instititionalized religion. For some people, religion has been about woo, symbolic trinkets, flickering candles, and feeling connected to something bigger then yourself. For them, there is a whole market in scented candles, chrystal pyramids, buddhist prayer beads, and meditation weekend courses. For others, religions main attraction was to feel that they were doing it right and that all the others were doing it wrong, were evil, and will be punished. Those people just mutter to themselves and others behind their particular falvour of newspaper or political party or they just complain to each other at work or in the bar about how those idiots are making sure the world goes to hell in a handbasket. For some nerds, what they found in religion was the deep discussions about the stories. [Well, Star Trek and LOTR offer those, too](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNtnN_DiP3o). Yet other kinds of nerds, like myself, are deeply interested in discussing good and evil in mankind and history. They are interested in the question “how should we live”. And I’m sorry to say that law, literature and social sciences have a lot more to offer in that regard then Christian religion. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/32 "2013-08-27T12:41:43Z")
I’ll use Wiki as my mostly one stop source, since many are going that way also, and throw these in as well, without commenting much just yet what to make of it all, because I’ve only spent perhaps 30 minutes on it thus far. _Wesley Clark_ already linked up to the irreligious countries. Here’s a few more things to think about. Countries with highest and lowest [suicide rates.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) China comes in at 22.3 per 100,000 inhabitants. Japan at 21.7. Russia 20.2. United States at 12.0. Germany 9.9. Netherlands 8.8. Mexico 4.0. Jamaica 0.1. There are 110 countries listed, so just picked up on a small sample. Countries with highest and lowest [homicide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) rate. Just comparing some regions for now, Africa had the highest rate coming in at 17.0 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Americas were not too far behind coming in at 15.4. Asia it dropped significantly to just 3.1. Europe was comparable at 3.5. The countries of El Salvador, Honduras, and Columbia are among the highest murder rates of any country. America had a homicidal rate of 4.8 per 100,000 inhabitants. Compare to Russia with over 10.2, and Canada doing quite well at 1.6. China also does exceptionally well here at 1.0, as did Japan at 0.4, Hong Kong, 0.2, and Singapore 0.3. Mexico came in at 23.7 and Columbia at 31.4. The statistics were gathered from the UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime) and perhaps the money behind drugs is one of the bigger factors among many that help perpetuate the violence in a few of these countries, anyway. Upon first glance, it seems Asians are more inclined to kill themselves than one another. Those in the America’s are more likely to kill you than themselves. But I’ll need to look at this some more. Greenland had the highest suicide rate at 100.8. Neighboring Iceland is 11.3. Greenland’s homicidal rate is 19.3 and Iceland’s 0.3. So contrasting differences between the two. In the United States, here is a [Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/114022/State-States-Importance-Religion.aspx) of the most religious and least religious states. Wiki under an article of [Atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism) says that religious states commit more crime than the non-religious states, but doesn’t give a citation for it. I’ve seen other places that do, but don’t have the time to dig for them. I’m sure the level of education or the lack of it also plays a role, but no time to dig up those either. I’ll leave it up to the true statisticians to make out what all of this really means. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/33 "2013-08-27T14:16:27Z")
Less than 40% of US citizens regularly attend church. So I chance that means we’re living in a society with a majority of non-religious people. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel\_rate.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/34 "2013-08-27T14:39:52Z")
Well it does all come down to how you define “irreligious.” The Gallup poll uses people who answered “no” to the question “is religion important in your life?” That’s where the high Denmark number comes from. An overwhelming majority of Danes do not apparently think religion is important. But other considerations: % of active church/synagogue/mosque/temple goers. % of self-identified atheists/agnostics. % of people who believe in the supernatural, but do not follow any flavor of a major religion. % of people who self-identify as associating with a religion, but don’t really believe much or any of that religion’s supernatural claims. (“Culturally” religious.) What we can certainly conclude, based on the evidence, is that less religious countries are not necessarily in any way worse countries to live in than religious ones. Whether you can further conclude that the religious countries are more likely to be associated with violence and unhappiness is debatable, but the data are quite suggestive of that conclusion. My hypothesis is simply that miserable people are more likely to seek religion, lacking other options. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/35 "2013-08-27T17:15:10Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > North Korea manages very well eschewing any belief in the supernatural, whilst being actively hostile to all organized religion. Don’t you consider the Kim Il Sung / Kim Sung Il / Kim Sung Un personality cult an organized religion? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/36 "2013-08-27T17:16:32Z")
Going back to the OT, I imagine societies with majority non-religious people will be less likely to spend taxpayer’s money on religious holiday decorations in public areas. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/37 "2013-08-27T19:03:18Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > North Korea manages very well eschewing any belief in the supernatural, whilst being actively hostile to all organized religion. Was this intended as irony? Their leadership includes two dead guys and they can’t even manage the basics such as feeding themselves. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/38 "2013-08-27T19:17:15Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Can’t speak for the perfidious Swedes, but I think most people just don’t understand Denmark when it comes to religion – or most other things. Danes are probably a lot more religious than you think, it’s just that public display such as church attendance is not a big part of it. Both on account of general national character and because of the very influential teaching of [Grundvig](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._F._S._Grundtvig). > Meanwhile 80% of the population are members of just a single church, even though it costs them money. There are also arguments that the whole Scandinavian welfare model is a realization of Lutheran Christianity, certainly Danes reach morally to such issues as helping the poor, aid, abortion, etc. An excellent post. I do not think that the concept of how religious a person is can be captured in just one number or in an answer to just one question. In earlier times, at least within the USA and Europe, it might have been assumed that the standard picture of a religious person meant going to church or synagogue once a week. But even then, a religious person might attend services less often than that or more often. There are no guarantees. At the present time, we have phenomena such as house churches, cell groups, “the emergent church” and other things that blur the line regarding what exactly it means to ‘go to church’. Furthermore, the church model of religious participation does not necessarily apply to all religions equally, as for some branches of Buddhism or Taoism, for instance, there’s no expectation that a practitioner show up at a particular building at a particular time once per week. Further, religion can permeate a society in ways beyond what makes individuals identify as members. In Scandinavia, for instances, they have a centuries-long heritage of Lutheranism even if many people don’t call themselves that any more, and institutions from that period still hanging around. Contra what **Ranger Jeff** and seems to think, countries such as Sweden are much more willing to spend government money on religions things that the USA, and religious schools play a much larger role. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/39 "2013-08-27T20:23:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m living in China right now. > Most people that I’ve met are not religious, and of those that are, they aren’t really religious in the western sense. Taoism and buddism are more like revered traditions rather than (generally) making claims about reality, or saying “do this – or else”. > > And…morality-wise…there seems to be the same proportion of kind acts to spitefulness as anywhere else (that is, thankfully; much more of the former). Do some Chinese sort of have a worship the State type of mentality? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183/40 "2013-08-27T20:26:43Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > North Korea manages very well eschewing any belief in the supernatural, whilst being actively hostile to all organized religion. I heard the former leader was quite an impressive golfer. Ever hear of [Kim Jong il’s amazing golfing skills?](http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/alltime_golf_scoring_record_goes_with_death_of_kim_jong_il) He had other amazing abilities as well, obviously something supernatural was going on because there was plenty of eyewitnesses too, and I would think if any one doubted it, they would have come forward. Not like anything would have happened to them. 😉 > [@](#): > > After picking up a golf club that day for the very first time in his life, the Dear Leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea fired a 38-under-par round of 34 at Pyongyang. According to the 17 security guards who observed the performance, the score included an amazing 11 aces. Naturally, the event was dutifully reported to the North Korean masses by the state news agency. > > But such unparalleled play on a golf course (minor question: how many par-3s could par-72 Pyongyang have?) is not surprising for the Supreme Commander of the North Korean Armed Forces. Kim also had the ability to influence the weather based on his mood; had a five-foot-two-inch body that didn’t require him to defecate; and was blessed with an ability to drink incredible amounts of Hennessey cognac which, at $630 a bottle, made him the company’s No. 1 customer, worldwide, over the past decade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-societies-with-majority-non-religious-people/667183.md?page=3)