# What happens to those without insurance in a foreign land? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456 "2010-11-12T17:23:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/41 "2010-11-14T00:21:07Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > Here’s an example dear to my heart (no pun intended) Blood pressure. Or better said, high blood pressure. For decades since the early 20th century normal systolic pressure was considered to be 100 + your age. In the 1970s, the target limit for initiating drug treatment was 160/95. This has now become 140/90, more recently, 115/75, with a large number of national organizations listed as approving this new move. Do you have any evidence at all that this was motivated by profit rather than a better understanding of the health effects of blood pressure over 115/75? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/42 "2010-11-14T00:28:07Z")
In Canada you’d be treated and then billed. I dunno about BC, but I know around here the charges are pretty hefty; the last time I thought to look in the ER, the charge just for seeing a doctor - if you’re not a resident - was $395 or some such thing. I haven’t paid $395 for the services of doctors in my entire life. Well, except dentists. ---
**Author:** ![CTburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a5b964/32.png) [@CTburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTburns)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/43 "2010-11-14T05:16:20Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > First post that summarizes all previous posts: > > Medicine and Healing for profit is a criminal activity. Then you should become a doctor and barter your services for food, clothing, shelter and heat. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/44 "2010-11-14T06:03:34Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > But individuals who happen to work for medical institutions do make a profit, which we call “wages”, regardless of whether the organisation they work for also makes a profit. If the arrangement wasn’t personally profitable to the individuals, they wouldn’t do the work. I don’t see why it is “evil” when an organisation makes profit out of providing healthcare, but it’s perfectly OK when an individual such as a nurse or doctor does it. I wasn’t the one saying making a profit in healthcare was evil. That was someone else. All I’m saying is that if you work for a non-profit organization, that doesn’t mean you work for free. That’s true in medicine as well. As a matter of fact, my primary care physician works for a very large non-profit medical foundation. It has hundreds of doctors, of many different specialties, under its roof. Here’s what they say about themselves: “The Palo Alto Medical Foundation for Health Care, Research and Education is a not-for-profit health care organization that is a pioneer in the multispecialty group practice of medicine.” Believe me, based on what they charge, their doctors are not working for free. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/45 "2010-11-14T06:32:03Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > First post that summarizes all previous posts: > > Medicine and Healing for profit is a criminal activity. Per this line of thinking, farming for profit is also criminal activity. With only a few emergency situations, I can live longer without medical attention much longer than I can live without food. Most doctors invest just as much, if not more of their lives (education, money, etc.) as the typical farmer. Yet, somehow, doctors are assholes who don’t deserve to make a decent living while John Mellencamp does concerts for farmers? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/46 "2010-11-14T07:17:32Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Per this line of thinking, farming for profit is also criminal activity. > > With only a few emergency situations, I can live longer without medical attention much longer than I can live without food. Most doctors invest just as much, if not more of their lives (education, money, etc.) as the typical farmer. Yet, somehow, doctors are assholes who don’t deserve to make a decent living while John Mellencamp does concerts for farmers? Read my message just above this. Doctors can make a VERY good living while working for a non-profit foundation. Not that I necessarily think all medicine should be non-profit. That’s a separate issue. But non-profit does not mean free labor. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/47 "2010-11-14T09:22:21Z")
I’d like to second the notion that suranyi writes above. Removing profit from the system does not mean doctors work for free. Seriously. Just because something makes you reflexively angry doesn’t mean you understand it. Please, actually think about this before repeating such silly claims. Once again, removing profit from the system does not mean doctors work for free. Do you actually think police work for free? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/48 "2010-11-14T12:20:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > This was actually an issue in London last year: > > [This is London Magazine](http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23745283-health-tourists-told-to-pay-for-treatment-or-go-home.do) Of course, the important part of that article is “Doctors at West Middlesex University hospital in Hounslow will stabilise patients, then quote them on any further treatment.” For some of the examples given in this thread, the bee sting and broken limbs for example, stabilising them is pretty much the end of the treatment anyway. I’d expect that to be the baseline in any western country. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/49 "2010-11-14T21:09:02Z")
A Swiss friend of mine broke her foot in Ireland (she had to be carried by her companions for two hours to the next transportation !). The hospital in Dublin wouldn’t accept any payment. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/50 "2010-11-14T21:40:10Z")
Don’t most countries with UHC (i.e., nearly all developed countries, and many others) have reciprocal agreements of some sort? Then they could bill the health care system in the person’s home country (alternatively, if they can assume that the number of your country’s patients I treat is going to roughly equal the number of my country’s patients your country is going to treat, they might just agree to write it all off to avoid the paperwork). Of course, as ever the USA is the big exception and problem. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/51 "2010-11-14T21:57:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you actually think police work for free? After a glance at my paycheck I’m inclined to say yes.😛 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/52 "2010-11-14T22:07:32Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Don’t most countries with UHC (i.e., nearly all developed countries, and many others) have reciprocal agreements of some sort? Then they could bill the health care system in the person’s home country (alternatively, if they can assume that the number of your country’s patients I treat is going to roughly equal the number of my country’s patients your country is going to treat, they might just agree to write it all off to avoid the paperwork). > > Of course, as ever the USA is the big exception and problem. Within the EU, definitely. There is a little blue credit card sized card that you are recommended to take with you when in another EU country just to clear up any confusion over entitlement (and also for health authorities to bill each other). It has numbers to define which country you are from and other info. Mine stays in my wallet at all times, just in case. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/53 "2010-11-15T00:46:29Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Don’t most countries with UHC (i.e., nearly all developed countries, and many others) have reciprocal agreements of some sort? Then they could bill the health care system in the person’s home country (alternatively, if they can assume that the number of your country’s patients I treat is going to roughly equal the number of my country’s patients your country is going to treat, they might just agree to write it all off to avoid the paperwork). > > Of course, as ever the USA is the big exception and problem. I vaguely remember my dad breaking his arm up in Canada on vacation in 1972, and I do believe he mentioned something about them having a deal with the US that Canada and the US sort of book keeping swap the debts so money never actually changes hands between the 2 countries. All I need to do is get to a NATO base and I can use my american military ID - there is some sort of reciprocity deal between NATO members. Not being totally nuts, I buy travel insurance and medical evac insurance =) My credit union tends to have decent deals on it, and I get it when I go in to buy euros. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456/54 "2010-11-15T01:13:46Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Within the EU, definitely. There is a little blue credit card sized card that you are recommended to take with you when in another EU country just to clear up any confusion over entitlement (and also for health authorities to bill each other). It has numbers to define which country you are from and other info. Mine stays in my wallet at all times, just in case. Now I am using a computer and not the iPad it is easier to search for and post this link: > **[European Health Insurance Card](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Health_Insurance_Card)** > > The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) is issued free of charge to anyone who is insured by or covered by a statutory social security scheme of the EEA countries or Switzerland and certain citizens and residents of the United Kingdom. It allows holders to receive medical treatment in another member state in the same way as residents of that state—i.e., free or at a reduced cost—if treatment becomes necessary during their visit (for example, due to illness or an accident), or if they have a chr... That’s the card I was talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-to-those-without-insurance-in-a-foreign-land/560456.md?page=2)