# What happens when the robots (peacefully) take over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914 "2012-01-09T11:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/221 "2015-04-17T21:16:11Z")
The first iteration (or even the first few) are always going to be problematic. But this is an area I hadn’t even thought of, yet seems so obvious on reflection. I would expect that in our lifetime, only very fancy or boutique-y restaurants (along with maybe a few struggling and straggling greasy spoons) will retain human kitchen staff (servers might hold out longer, even though their job is more easily automated in some ways, just because of customer preferences). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/222 "2015-04-17T21:41:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yeah, I’m skeptical about that one. Firstly the 2,000 dishes is a goal; it’s not clear how many it can do right now. In the Economist’s article, the implication was right now it can just do one dish, after you lay out the (chopped) ingredients for it. > The main reason I’m skeptical is because I think using standard kitchen equipment and motion capture is inherently bug-prone. > > Not that I think an automated cook is some kind of fantasy idea; it’s something that would be incredibly useful / profitable and the technology does appear to be in place. I just suspect the first robust system will either use custom apparatus to cook with, or use sensors, cameras etc to interact in a standard kitchen. I agree, it’s a just a bare beginning, hardly a well-developed technology, and I agree that motion capture has a lot of inherent limitations that will cause problems. And I suspect that the way robotic kitchens will evolve is as a whole series of devices that make cooking easier and easier, reducing kitchen staff until a critical mass is reached and the staff required becomes less than one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/223 "2015-05-04T13:58:18Z")
A robotic factory that makes robots[is capable of running for 30 days at a time without human intervention,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_%28manufacturing%29#Existing_.22lights-out_factories.22) it’s part of a trend toward lights-out manufacturing, and has been in existence since 2001. The writing is on the wall for manufacturing work has been around for a while: old news, but people have been wondering who will build the robots. The answer is clear: other robots. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/224 "2015-05-04T17:09:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Looks like [scientific research is being roboticized.](http://webandtechs.com/2015/02/robot-scientist-to-discover-drugs-dramatically-faster-1/) Fascinating, the way new forms of automation and roboticization seem to proceed in an almost random fashion. This reminded me that Marty Burke published a paper on automated chemical synthesis a month or two back in _Science_. I will try to return with links and commentary when I’m not on the road. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/225 "2015-05-04T19:41:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > A robotic factory that makes robots[is capable of running for 30 days at a time without human intervention,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_%28manufacturing%29#Existing_.22lights-out_factories.22) it’s part of a trend toward lights-out manufacturing, and has been in existence since 2001. The writing is on the wall for manufacturing work has been around for a while: old news, but people have been wondering who will build the robots. The answer is clear: other robots. There’s something creepy about “lights out” manufacturing, though it makes perfect sense logically. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/226 "2015-05-05T11:24:12Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This reminded me that Marty Burke published a paper on automated chemical synthesis a month or two back in _Science_. I will try to return with links and commentary when I’m not on the road. Still on the road, but breakfast isn’t open yet. Found it: DOI: 10.1126/science.aaa5414 Easy-read: [The End of Synthesis – Corante](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2015/03/12/the_end_of_synthesis.php) I expect this will have affects similar to the automated synthesis of peptides and nucleic acids, i.e. more, cooler science to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/227 "2015-05-05T13:37:09Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Still on the road, but breakfast isn’t open yet. Found it: > DOI: 10.1126/science.aaa5414 > Easy-read: [The End of Synthesis – Corante](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2015/03/12/the_end_of_synthesis.php) > > I expect this will have affects similar to the automated synthesis of peptides and nucleic acids, i.e. more, cooler science to be done. I’m not sure what this has to do with robotic and automation taking away jobs, though I saw hints when someone n the comments said it might pave the way for cheap home molecular printers. It sounds like it might put a few organic chemists out of work, but more likely just force them to move on to new fields: it seemed to work only with certain kinds of chemical bonds. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/228 "2015-05-05T14:36:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not sure what this has to do with robotic and automation taking away jobs, though I saw hints when someone n the comments said it might pave the way for cheap home molecular printers. It sounds like it might put a few organic chemists out of work, but more likely just force them to move on to new fields: it seemed to work only with certain kinds of chemical bonds. It reduces a major component of drug development that takes years of work and a PhD in chemistry to a few minutes of button-pushing and an afternoon of waiting. Not in all cases, but in enough to disrupt the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/229 "2015-05-05T15:28:28Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It reduces a major component of drug development that takes years of work and a PhD in chemistry to a few minutes of button-pushing and an afternoon of waiting. > > Not in all cases, but in enough to disrupt the industry. Ah, gotcha. That would explain many of the comments after the blog post. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/230 "2015-05-10T13:29:32Z")
[This episode](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/05/06/404701816/episode-621-when-luddites-attack) of the Planet Money podcast is germane to the discussion, especially 45 seconds of it near the end: from 18:00-18:30, and 19:10-19:25. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/231 "2015-05-10T14:58:49Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > This is contrary to centuries of history, and even the most introductory economics. > > Even when some workers do lose out – which can absolutely happen, yes, if we’re not on a super-long-term time frame – the owners of the robots are not now, nor have they ever been, the only winners. The remaining workers benefit loads, as does the rest of society. We’ve had _two hundred years of evidence_ about this since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It is helpful to learn a little bit about these events and economic processes that led to our modern technological world in order to comment sensibly about it. I find this argument very weak. The future of automation will be very different from the past, and encroach more and more on white collar work. I find this analysis of history as tremendously flawed in the situation. In the beginning of the industrial revolution, it was _horrible_ for the workers. It was not as if technology was created and the benefits just trickled down to everyone - they had to be fought for. The workers fought and won - but part of the reason they won is because they were needed; they were a necessary part of the production process. If workers are no longer part of the production process, and therefore not needed, then what leverage do they have? ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/232 "2015-05-10T15:19:49Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I find this argument very weak. The future of automation will be very different from the past, and encroach more and more on white collar work. > > I find this analysis of history as tremendously flawed in the situation. In the beginning of the industrial revolution, it was _horrible_ for the workers. It was not as if technology was created and the benefits just trickled down to everyone - they had to be fought for. The workers fought and won - but part of the reason they won is because they were needed; they were a necessary part of the production process. If workers are no longer part of the production process, and therefore not needed, then what leverage do they have? You’re responding to a post from January 2012. There is a more recent, and much higher quality thread, [from just last month](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=754185) where my thoughts on this topic are more fully fleshed out. If you’d like to discuss this, you’d be better off reading those posts to get more context and then bumping that thread with any questions or criticisms you have. One thing I’d briefly point out, which I might not have mentioned there, is that it’s an extremely difficult argument to make that early automation was _worse_ for workers than what had come before. [Enclosure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure) preceded the Industrial Revolution proper. So the actual question is: Did the early Industrial Revolution literally make things worse, or did it consolidate already existing poverty into focal points that were no worse than before, but more easily observed and commented upon? (I don’t have an answer to that, by the way. I want to emphasize the problem with casual historical assertions. It’s not enough to point at bad things and say they’re bad, when those conditions might plausibly have been an improvement on what they were doing before.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/233 "2015-05-10T19:39:48Z")
Another drop in the bucket: [an autonomous driving truck](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27485-autonomous-truck-cleared-to-drive-on-us-roads-for-the-first-time.html#.VU-zKpPJuSp) is cleared for use on US highways. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/234 "2015-05-10T19:45:19Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I find this argument very weak. The future of automation will be very different from the past, and encroach more and more on white collar work. > > I find this analysis of history as tremendously flawed in the situation. In the beginning of the industrial revolution, it was _horrible_ for the workers. It was not as if technology was created and the benefits just trickled down to everyone - they had to be fought for. The workers fought and won - but part of the reason they won is because they were needed; they were a necessary part of the production process. If workers are no longer part of the production process, and therefore not needed, then what leverage do they have? Well that’s my viewpoint too … I’m sure that, long term, automating jobs out of existence will be good for the human race … at least, those who survive the process. But looking at the trends today: huge wealth inequality sparking a huge social gap between the one percent and the peasantry, libertarianism and conservatism increasingly popular among the one percent, Citizens United making our government basically a puppet of the One Percent … it looks BAD for our children, possibly our children’s children. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/235 "2015-05-10T20:03:47Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > You’re responding to a post from January 2012. > > There is a more recent, and much higher quality thread, [from just last month](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=754185) where my thoughts on this topic are more fully fleshed out. If you’d like to discuss this, you’d be better off reading those posts to get more context and then bumping that thread with any questions or criticisms you have. > > One thing I’d briefly point out, which I might not have mentioned there, is that it’s an extremely difficult argument to make that early automation was _worse_ for workers than what had come before. [Enclosure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure) preceded the Industrial Revolution proper. So the actual question is: Did the early Industrial Revolution literally make things worse, or did it consolidate already existing poverty into focal points that were no worse than before, but more easily observed and commented upon? (I don’t have an answer to that, by the way. I want to emphasize the problem with casual historical assertions. It’s not enough to point at bad things and say they’re bad, when those conditions might plausibly have been an improvement on what they were doing before.) [Here’s a piece](http://webs.bcp.org/sites/vcleary/ModernWorldHistoryTextbook/IndustrialRevolution/IREffects.html) the addresses the living and working conditions of people in Britain during the Industrial Revolution. It’s even worse than I thought, and I thought it really sucked! > [@](#): > > The Registrar General reported in 1841 that the average life expectancy in rural areas of England was 45 years of age but was only 37 in London and an alarming 26 in Liverpool (Haley). Life expectancy in industrial Liverpool was very nearly half what it was in rural England. I’d say that tells us a lot about the quality of life of the rural poor vs. the urban poor. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/236 "2015-05-11T02:24:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Life expectancy in industrial Liverpool was very nearly half what it was in rural England. I’d say that tells us a lot about the quality of life of the rural poor vs. the urban poor. That is a good and important fact. But it doesn’t address the underlying issue I was referring to. _Enclosure preceded the Industrial Revolution._ Enclosure forced masses of people out of the countryside and into the relatively less healthful cities, and this would have been true even without a subsequent Industrial Revolution. There was always going to be a mass of sickly people living in urban areas after enclosure and before modern sanitation. The question is whether the subsequent factory system contributed on average to those urban problems, or provided some slight amelioration to what their existence otherwise would have been. That issue can’t be resolved with simple life expectancy comparisons. It is at least an order of magnitude more difficult because it involves imagining what their lives would have been like without the Revolution ever happening. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/237 "2015-05-11T08:51:30Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > There is a more recent, and much higher quality thread, Much higher? Well, first of all, that’s just rude. I’m partial to this one, of course, but it seems to me that they are both of good quality. (The best posts in both threads are those by **Lemur866** , IMO.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/238 "2015-05-11T08:55:28Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Another drop in the bucket: [an autonomous driving truck](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27485-autonomous-truck-cleared-to-drive-on-us-roads-for-the-first-time.html#.VU-zKpPJuSp) is cleared for use on US highways. That’s fascinating. I’m surprised they are this far along–but glad to see this, as it could really be a boon for safety. If you read through the article, though, it still requires having a driver. Which hints at one way automation could go: rather than lay everyone off and put them on the dole, people might keep “working” alongside the automation, so that the future looks a little like _The Jetsons_, where George’s job involved pushing the occasional button. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/239 "2015-05-11T12:12:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which hints at one way automation could go: rather than lay everyone off and put them on the dole, people might keep “working” alongside the automation. That’s why automation creates jobs. It always has and does so today. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914/240 "2015-05-11T12:25:06Z")
I recently read the ‘Yukikaze’ novels by Chōhei Kanbayashi which had a rather interesting depiction of the interrelationship between advanced AI’s and humanity in a military context. I thought it had a rather neat explanation of why humans were still a necessary component in the system: During the climatic battle the airbase is under both physical and electronic attack, the AI systems aren’t sure if what they are receiving from their sensory equipment is real or the result of sustained hacking attacks, so they request humans to check the reports out confirm or deny what is actually occurring, as humans are biological and can’t be hacked in the same way In fact for most of the war the alien enemy _(the JAM)_ don’t seem to perceive humans at all and humans have never seen a JAM only their machines _(its unclear if the JAM are their machines or not)_ so you have humans building machines to fight machines and the machines creating humans to fight humans. They are actually really good books with quite a few ideas I haven’t come across elsewhere. The anime has its moments but it isn’t nearly as good. \*and apparently they’re making a live-action movie starring Tom Cruise! They made a great adaptation of ‘All You Need Is Kill’ as ‘Edge of Tomorrow’, so fingers crossed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-robots-peacefully-take-over/608914.md?page=13)