# What happens when the Virginia legislature ratifies the Equal Rights Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 6, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081 "2019-11-06T16:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/21 "2019-11-07T01:37:42Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Sorry, is this about what happens if Virginia ratifies the ERA, or what happens when the ERA is acknowledged to be passed? You don’t have to read very far into this thread to get the answer to this question. We’ll be here should you decide to participate. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/22 "2019-11-07T02:30:53Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > You don’t have to read very far into this thread to get the answer to this question. We’ll be here should you decide to participate. I wouldn’t have asked if I hadn’t needed to. I am slightly Asperger’s and sometimes have trouble parsing the intent of things depending on how they’re worded. So humor me please. I _ **guessing** _ it’s about whether Virginia’s ratification would be held to have passed the amendment; but what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/23 "2019-11-07T04:19:51Z")
Wild card: Congress grants US Virgin Islands statehood, thus requiring a 39th ratification of the ERA. That’s after Scientologists take over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/24 "2019-11-07T04:39:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I wouldn’t have asked if I hadn’t needed to. I am slightly Asperger’s and sometimes have trouble parsing the intent of things depending on how they’re worded. So humor me please. I _ **guessing** _ it’s about whether Virginia’s ratification would be held to have passed the amendment; but what do I know? The thread is about, “What happens when the Virginia legislature ratifies the Equal Rights Amendment”. Do you have any thoughts on, “What happens when the Virginia legislature ratifies the Equal Rights Amendment”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/25 "2019-11-07T06:11:04Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > With all of the federal legislature that has happened since along with case law would the ERA make any meaningful difference now? Yes, i think so, there are solid argument it would. I started a GD page about that some time ago: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878676](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878676) What with the dirty tricks trump, McConnell and the GOP have pulled, and stuff like the various states with their ridiculous restrictions on abortions, I think that the ERA is needed now, more than ever. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/26 "2019-11-07T06:17:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, i think so, there are solid argument it would. I started a GD page about that some time ago: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878676](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=878676) > > What with the dirty tricks trump, McConnell and the GOP have pulled, and stuff like the various states with their ridiculous restrictions on abortions, I think that the ERA is needed now, more than ever. Not to mention that it would codify LBGT rights in a way that isn’t subject to the whim of a future Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/27 "2019-11-07T06:43:02Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I don’t see SCOTUS ruling that either. I do, however, see a textualist argument that states rescinding ratification has no legal weight. > > There’s nothing in the text about three quarters of the states having **currently** ratified the proposed amendment. The text is, “when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states.” Should Virginia ratify the ERA it will have been ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states. I get that. I also get the precident argument. But if you believe the Court won’t go for it, then I don’t see why it matters if there is a valid argument. They decide what happens. I personally continue to hold out hope that the conservative justices will consider the law without regard to their politics. But I think that’s unlikely in a case like this where they have wiggle room. They’ll either decide the states can rescind, or, to avoid overturning precedent, decide that Congress can set time limits. (Note this is not the same thing as considering the law without regards to their morals, in case someone thinks I’m contradicting my earlier claim that morals are important.) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/28 "2019-11-07T06:50:46Z")
But the precedent is that rescission is not valid. And the textual argument is that rescission is not valid. So why would, for example Neil Gorsuch, bound by the text and by precedent rule against the ratification of the ERA? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/29 "2019-11-07T13:56:13Z")
Textualist arguments are based on what is in the text, and there is nothing in the text that says “states may not rescind their ratification”. > [@Lance Turbo](#): > > The text is, “[W]hen ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states […]” That begs the question of whether or not a state can rescind its ratification. The Constitution doesn’t say they can, and it doesn’t say they can’t. So there is no textualist argument either way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/30 "2019-11-07T14:03:43Z")
What the hell does the ERA have to do with abortion? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/31 "2019-11-07T14:35:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Textualist arguments are based on what is in the text, and there is nothing in the text that says “states may not rescind their ratification”. That begs the question of whether or not a state can rescind its ratification. > > The Constitution doesn’t say they can, and it doesn’t say they can’t. So there is no textualist argument either way. > > Regards, > Shodan 10th amendment argument could be made. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/32 "2019-11-07T16:36:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Textualist arguments are based on what is in the text, and there is nothing in the text that says “states may not rescind their ratification”. That begs the question of whether or not a state can rescind its ratification. > > The Constitution doesn’t say they can, and it doesn’t say they can’t. So there is no textualist argument either way. > > Regards, > Shodan The text is, “[W]hen ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states […]” The text is not, “[W]hen the number of states that have ratified the amendment minus the number of states that have sent ‘just kidding’ letters meets or exceeds three fourths of the total number of states […]” There is no textual argument for even considering what a state may or may not have done after that state has ratified a proposed amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/33 "2019-11-07T17:34:39Z")
Again, that begs the question of whether or not a state can rescind the ratification. The text of the Constitution does not say they can, nor that they can’t. > [@](#): > > There is no textual argument for even considering what a state may or may not have done after that state has ratified a proposed amendment. There is no textual argument for not considering it either. The text doesn’t address the issue. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/34 "2019-11-07T17:41:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The text doesn’t address the issue. The text addresses the issue of what is required for an amendment to be ratified. When the requirements specified in the text are met the proposed amendment becomes part of the constitution. The text is, “[W]hen ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states […]” The text is not, “[W]hen the number of states that have ratified the amendment minus the number of states that have sent ‘just kidding’ letters meets or exceeds three fourths of the total number of states […]” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/35 "2019-11-07T18:23:17Z")
Where in the text does it say “such ratification may never be rescinded”? If you want to make a textualist argument, you will have to cite such a text. The closest we’ve come so far is **octopus** ’ point about the 10th Amendment, but that doesn’t bolster your point at all - just the opposite. Since the Constitution does not assign the power to decide if ratification can be rescinded, then the power should remain with the states or the people. Since the text does not say whether or not the ratification can be rescinded, there is no textualist argument to be made. Repeating yourself is not textualism. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/36 "2019-11-07T18:30:19Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The text addresses the issue of what is required for an amendment to be ratified. When the requirements specified in the text are met the proposed amendment becomes part of the constitution. > > The text is, “[W]hen ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states […]” > > The text is not, “[W]hen the number of states that have ratified the amendment minus the number of states that have sent ‘just kidding’ letters meets or exceeds three fourths of the total number of states […]” But they haven’t sent “just kidding” letters, they have signed legislation saying that they were no longer ratifying the amendment. A case could be made that this later legislation overrules the previous legislation and thus they had no longer ratified the amendment. As Shodan said, this is unsettled law, but my guess would be that the the revocation of the repeal would be valid. I think that it is clear that the framers intended that 3/4 of the states agreed with the amendment at the time it is ratified, not that it was possible to cobble together a set of agreements over the course of decades even if there was never a time when 3/4 would agree simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/37 "2019-11-07T18:49:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Where in the text does it say “such ratification may never be rescinded”? If you want to make a textualist argument, you will have to cite such a text. > > The closest we’ve come so far is **octopus** ’ point about the 10th Amendment, but that doesn’t bolster your point at all - just the opposite. Since the Constitution does not assign the power to decide if ratification can be rescinded, then the power should remain with the states or the people. > > Since the text does not say whether or not the ratification can be rescinded, there is no textualist argument to be made. Repeating yourself is not textualism. > > Regards, > Shodan You mistake me. I 100% agree that states can rescind ratification. I just don’t think there’s anything in the text to indicate that such rescission should be given any legal weight. I said is much in post #10. I have cited the text three times that specifies what should be counted when determining the ratification of a proposed amendment. Furthermore, I have shown that the precedent is to ignore rescissions. The argument that the text is silent on rescission therefore it should count doesn’t make much sense. The text is also silent on whether or not states with flags that feature animals should be double counted, therefore… what? The text is silent on essentially an infinite number of things. It’s absurd to consider any of them. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/38 "2019-11-07T18:50:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What with the dirty tricks trump, McConnell and the GOP have pulled, and stuff like the various states with their ridiculous restrictions on abortions, I think that the ERA is needed now, more than ever. You forget that the ERA itself lets Congress define “equality” - for example, “all abortions are illegal, whether the person having the abortion is a man or a women.” (One response to, “No, because men can’t have abortions anyway,” is, “Women who ‘identify as men’ can - are you saying they aren’t men?”) > [@Smapti](#): > > Not to mention that it would codify LBGT rights in a way that isn’t subject to the whim of a future Supreme Court. What effect would “not abridiging equality under the law on the basis of sex” have on LGBT? For example, “You can only marry someone of the opposite sex” applies equally to men as it does to women. The second section of the ERA - “The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article” - could actually be used against women. What if somebody comes up with the crazy idea that, say, a public university cannot ban men from its “women’s basketball” team, defining “equality” as “not taking gender into consideration whatsoever”? (“That’s not what ‘equality’ means!” - er, Section 2 of the ERA seems to say that it means whatever Congress says it means.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/39 "2019-11-07T18:59:18Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The argument that the text is silent on rescission therefore it should count doesn’t make much sense. The text is also silent on whether or not states with flags that feature animals should be double counted, therefore… what? Therefore there is no textualist argument that states with animal flags should be double-counted. > [@](#): > > The text is silent on essentially an infinite number of things. It’s absurd to consider any of them. Including the idea that states may not rescind their ratification. Because the text is silent on that. The text says that three quarters of states have to ratify an amendment. Three quarters have not ratified - five of them have rescinded their ratification. There is nothing in the text that says they can’t do that. Therefore the question cannot be settled on textualist grounds. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081/40 "2019-11-07T19:02:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Therefore there is no textualist argument that states with animal flags should be double-counted. > Including the idea that states may not rescind their ratification. Because the text is silent on that. > > The text says that three quarters of states have to ratify an amendment. Three quarters have not ratified - five of them have rescinded their ratification. There is nothing in the text that says they can’t do that. Therefore the question cannot be settled on textualist grounds. > > Regards, > Shodan But those five did ratify the amendment. Maybe they can rescind that ratification (or maybe they can double it with magic powers?), but that determination will have to be made by the courts. Just saying “ratification doesn’t count if X happens” doesn’t mean that ratification doesn’t count because X happens. It’s a fact of history that those states ratified the amendment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-happens-when-the-virginia-legislature-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment/843081.md?page=3)