# what has Corporatism ruined for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146 "2004-10-31T07:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/21 "2004-11-01T18:23:49Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > [Corporatism] usually means “a social or ethical system in which your first loyalty is to your group, not to society at large, and any and all measures tending to advance the group are warranted.” I did not know that. In such light, I’d have to say that the biggest hassle of corporatism is the tendency for people who hate corporations to abandon thought in favor of blind adherence to the ideology of their clique, especially when they don’t get the irony of their claims to be independent and visionary thinkers. They are very tiresome. Also, I would list new urbanism, sprawl hating, traffic calming, environmentalism, party politics, outdated copywrite rules, DeBeers and all manner of community activism. I really haven’t experienced much along the lines of corporatism coming from the business community because loyatly to the larger community is usually implicit in profit maximizing. Counter examples, such as the RIAA, are the exception rather than the rule, in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/22 "2004-11-01T18:42:11Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > No athlete is worth 30 million to play a game when there are research scientist working on cures for Horrible Afflicting Diseases who make under 20K a year. Agreed. I’d love for sports to be a small nice hobby thing. You’d support your local team in matches against other teams from the same area, and the good players would get a free beer at the local pub 'cause the bartender liked that penalty kick last Sunday. Hooliganism and supporter violence would be severely reduced if not entirely eliminated. Instead we have this huge, surreal industry which everyone has to care about or be looked at like some freak from another planet, paying people astronomical sums of money to be good at a children’s game while other people care so much you’d think it were something that matters. ---
**Author:** ![fishbicycle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aeb1de/32.png) [@fishbicycle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishbicycle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/23 "2004-11-01T18:57:43Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > …we have this huge, surreal industry which everyone has to care about or be looked at like some freak from another planet, paying people astronomical sums of money to be good at a children’s game while other people care so much you’d think it were something that matters. **Priceguy** , that was the most eloquent, succinct explanation I’ve ever read to explain why I have never given a tinker’s damn about sports. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/24 "2004-11-01T19:05:46Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > You really weren’t looking hard enough. Or maybe s/he lived out in the far 'burbs, or in an ethnically-homogeneous mid-to-small-size city or town a long drive away from the Big City. ---
**Author:** ![partlycloudy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/partlycloudy/32/3114_2.png) [@partlycloudy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partlycloudy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/25 "2004-11-01T19:33:57Z")
Funny, I just read an article about this: [To be a ‘clone town’ or not…?](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/01/international/europe/01stratford.html?pagewanted=1&8hpib) Talking about ‘corporatism’ in Stratford-Upon-Avon: > [@](#): > > A visitor must march past Country Casuals, Boots pharmacy, Next, and Marks & Spencer, and pass Accessorize, HMV, Whittard and of course, the dueling coffee shops, Starbucks and Costa Coffee. If it were not for Shakespeare’s dwelling and a few notable old houses, this town - with row upon row of British chain stores - would scarcely be different from any other in Britain these days. Most butcher shops and hardware stores have closed. So have the family clothing shops, the fishmongers and a long list of other independent businesses. Now I admit, I do like the low prices and the convenience factor. I’ve been known to say things like, “I love Super Target” and “Thank god they’re building a Williams-Sonoma in the new mall!” But it’s sad how everything has become so de-personalized. Yeah, Wal-Mart and Burger King are the same everywhere you go, but… they’re the _same_ **everywhere** you go. No variety. Sure, these places make life easier, but they don’t do anything to _enrich_ it. Oh, and don’t even try to convince me **Starbucks** offers lower prices! ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/26 "2004-11-01T21:26:46Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Or maybe s/he lived out in the far 'burbs, or in an ethnically-homogeneous mid-to-small-size city or town a long drive away from the Big City. So she might have to leave her little domicile of conformity and sameness to drive to the big, bad city. Or the next town over. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/27 "2004-11-01T21:39:08Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Agreed. I’d love for sports to be a small nice hobby thing. You’d support your local team in matches against other teams from the same area, and the good players would get a free beer at the local pub 'cause the bartender liked that penalty kick last Sunday. Hooliganism and supporter violence would be severely reduced if not entirely eliminated. > > Instead we have this huge, surreal industry which everyone has to care about or be looked at like some freak from another planet, paying people astronomical sums of money to be good at a children’s game while other people care so much you’d think it were something that matters. I go to minor league sports in my area and support local racing. I find them as (if not more) interesting than the major league stuff. Sadly, the attendence isn’t what it could be but there is still enough crowd to keep in going. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/28 "2004-11-01T21:55:24Z")
I’ve noticed this about a lot of chains, like Subway and Quizno’s – the mom and pop sub and sandwich places are much cheaper. > [@LoganDear](#): > > Oh, and don’t even try to convince me **Starbucks** offers lower prices! ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/29 "2004-11-02T00:42:37Z")
This is more of a local, junior corporation thing but it still bothers me. There is a local bakery that has bought out their competition in my area. What’s worse, the product they make is inferior to the places that they bought out. The best donuts and bagels in town no longer exist thanks to them. :mad: Oh, and most music nowadays is crap. It seems like even the news has gotten more corporate and less news these days. That may just be me though. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/30 "2004-11-02T02:59:41Z")
Bakeries is the big one. It used to be that local bakeries produced a variety of breads. You could get anything from pumpernickel to honey wheat with raisins. Nowadays no place offers anything that you can’t buy in a bag at the grocery store. The donuts and cakes at independent bakeries were a lot better too. These days the corporate places squeeze donuts out of a machine, and they taste like sweet paper mache. And how about tourist resorts. It used to be that when you visited a place like Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park there was a top-quality hotel and fine dining. Now there’s just a fast-food type place and if you try to sit down they all but shove you out the door so that another customer can come in. Two companies, Aramark and Deleware North, went around buying up every resort they could get their greasy hands on. The gift shops used to offer specialty foods and high-quality clothing, now it’s all two-dollar crap made in China. And no kidding about radio. Corporation - (noun) an entity designed to decrease human enjoyment ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/31 "2004-11-02T08:36:04Z")
What bothers me is the little things about the corporate based system we live in. Radio, yeah… music sucks because of the record labels and the big money… yada yada… sucks. The starbucks plague… sucks. But as has been mentioned before you couldn’t buy a frappe foamy something or other mispronounced by the suits. What bothers me is the theme we have in our lives that seems more and more to become the driving cause behind the reason to live. We live for our cars, for our SUVs, for our houses and our DVD players. Life has become bland. We don’t go to the corner store, we go to the Super Wal Mart. “Average American” wanders randomly through the lanes of Wal Mart not for something specific, but rather for just an afternoon of shopping. We live in a pre-packaged world where the next big blockbuster or Lopez is far more important than who makes the decisions in our nation. We work more hours than most (if not all) western nations while hoping we don’t get cancer because basic medical coverage is not allowed by the powerful insurance PACs. Food has been brought down from a real family get together to waiting in line behing McDonalds for a load of calories so the Ritilan dosed consumer in training can get a toy along with his food. We work a 9 to 5 to afford the electronic babysitter with 350 channels for when we’re at work. Have you ever seen a kid blow up crying because he didn’t get what he wanted in the mall? How about seeing a 12 year old do it? I have. I feel sorry for the world tomorrow that has these kids who have been forced into this “must buy something today” mentality that feeds the corporations the $. and I went off on a rant… ---
**Author:** ![Freejooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Freejooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freejooky)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/32 "2004-11-02T09:59:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Bullshit. Actually, I know one - my good friend, currently employed by the National Institute of Health in Washington, DC, working for just about $20K a year. She’s been working on HIV and Alzheimer’s. Next up for her: Mad Cow and Ebola. She can’t even afford to pay her rent. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/33 "2004-11-02T14:04:56Z")
> [@Freejooky](#): > > Actually, I know one - my good friend, currently employed by the National Institute of Health in Washington, DC, working for just about $20K a year. She’s been working on HIV and Alzheimer’s. Next up for her: Mad Cow and Ebola. She can’t even afford to pay her rent. But she’s working for the good of the people! Hopefully she’ll have a profit sharing set up for when the pills start to get marketed. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/34 "2004-11-02T14:29:57Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I’m also sick of corporations and sports. The Spiderman logo on the bases last year showed that I’m not the only one. Fox’s phony baseball ads and endless hype have all but ruined the baseball playoffs. Corporate sponsering of stadiums is also ridiculous. I’m dreading the day in which the teams are named for companies and the players wear ads. I"ll quit being a fan at that time. They already do that here. Our rugby team is the “Vodaphone Wallabies.” I shit you not. And there are ads on everything. Jerseys, goalposts, goalpost pads… The cheerleaders at the last game I watched (I think it was state of Origin) were all wearing lime green outfits and advertising the X-box. If I didn’t hate pro sports before I do now. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/35 "2004-11-02T14:51:54Z")
> [@Freejooky](#): > > She’s been working on HIV and Alzheimer’s. Next up for her: Mad Cow and Ebola. She can’t even afford to pay her rent. That’s very different to the experience of people I know in medical research. Two completely different viral infections, a prion disease and a degenerative neurological condition are _very_ disparate areas to have involvement in even for someone at the lowest levels of research like an assistant. A mate in London is finishing his Ph.D in epidemiology and his life pretty much became diabetes from the last year of his undergrad degree. His career, as well as his usefulness, would take a small step backwards if he moved so he stayed and kept moving up. It’s similar for the people I met through him too. Maybe a shift to a related field but four unrelated jumps like that? Anyway, good luck to her. I hope she gets as much out of it as she provides for others even if she doesn’t end up with houses full of consumer crap. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/36 "2004-11-02T15:47:15Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > But she’s working for the good of the people! Hopefully she’ll have a profit sharing set up for when the pills start to get marketed. I honestly can’t tell if you got whooshed. NIH = no profit sharing “when the pills start to get marketed”. **Gest** , my suspicion is that **Freejooky** ’s friend is employed at a relatively low-ranking post working for NIH at whatever NIH sees fit, rather than at research of her choosing. But that’s neither here not there. A disproportion in who gets paid the big bux (or gets the huge tracts of land) relative to their utility to humanity antedates the modern corporate climate. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/37 "2004-11-02T20:18:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I honestly can’t tell if you got whooshed. NIH = no profit sharing “when the pills start to get marketed”. I was trying to be sarcastic, but perhaps the tables have turned. Although, if she got a job at a nonprofit instead of a for-profit company, what’s the complaint? ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/38 "2004-11-02T20:58:07Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > They already do that here. Our rugby team is the “Vodaphone Wallabies.” I shit you not. And there are ads on everything. Jerseys, goalposts, goalpost pads… The cheerleaders at the last game I watched (I think it was state of Origin) were all wearing lime green outfits and advertising the X-box. > > If I didn’t hate pro sports before I do now. Hun, State of Origin is rugby league not union, the Wallabies don’t play State of Origin! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/39 "2004-11-02T21:05:20Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > They already do that here. Our rugby team is the “Vodaphone Wallabies.” I shit you not. And there are ads on everything. Jerseys, goalposts, goalpost pads… The cheerleaders at the last game I watched (I think it was state of Origin) were all wearing lime green outfits and advertising the X-box. > > If I didn’t hate pro sports before I do now. Federal Express tried to get an NBA team in Memphis named the Express, but the NBA shot down the plan because it doens’t allow teams to be named after companies. And Kentucky Fried Chicken tried to get a team in Louisville named the Colonels. Sooner or later someone will offer enough money that the NBA will back down. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146/40 "2004-11-02T21:39:56Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I feel I should point out that the word “corporatism” doesn’t usually mean simply “the corporate system” or “the market society that results from lack of restraint on corporations.” It usually means “a social or ethical system in which your first loyalty is to your group, not to society at large, and any and all measures tending to advance the group are warranted.” From [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism:) > [@](#): > > Historically, **corporatism** or **corporativism** (Italian corporativismo) is a political system in which legislative power is given to corporations that represent economic, industrial, and professional groups. Unlike pluralism, in which many groups must compete for control of the state, in corporatism, certain unelected bodies take a critical role in the decision-making process. This original meaning was not connected with the specific notion of a business corporation, being a rather more general reference to any incorporated body. The word “corporatism” is derived from the Latin word for body, corpus. > > Ostensibly, the entire society is to be run by decisions made by these corporate groups. It is a form of class collaboration put forward as an alternative to class conflict and was first proposed in Pope Leo XIII’s 1891 encyclical Rerum Novarum, which influenced Catholic trade unions which were organised in the early twentieth century to counter the influence of trade unions founded on a socialist ideology. > > Gabriele D’Annunzio and anarcho-syndicalist Alceste de Ambris incorporated much of corporative philosophy in their Constitution of Fiume. > > One early and important theorist of corporatism was Adam Müller, an advisor to Prince Metternich in what is now eastern Germany and Austria. Müller propounded his views as an antidote to the twin “dangers” of the egalitarianism of the French Revolution and the laissez faire economics of Adam Smith. In Germany and elsewhere there was a distinct aversion among rulers to allow unrestricted capitalism, owing to the feudalist and aristocratic tradition of giving state privileges to the wealthy and powerful. > > Under Fascism in Italy, employers and employees were organized into 22 guilds, or associations, known as “corporations” according to their industries, and these groups were given representation in a legislative body known as the Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni. > > According to various theorists corporatism was an attempt to create a “modern” version of feudalism by merging the “corporate” interests with those of the state. Also see neofeudalism. > > This use of the term “corporation” is not exactly equivalent to the restricted modern sense of the word. Compare corporate state and militarism. Corporate in this context is intended to convey the meaning of a “body,” as in corpus. Its purpose is to reflect more medieval European concepts of a whole society in which the various parts each play a part in the life of the society, just as the various parts of the body play specific parts in the life of a body. > > Some elements of corporatism can be found still existing today, for example in the ILO Conference or in the Economic and Social Committee of the European Union, or the collective agreement arrangements of the Scandinavian countries. > > Elements of corporatism may also be found in the United States, where corporations representing many different groups exist to influence legislation through lobbying. There are corporations representing, for example, organized-labor, educators, gun-rights advocates, and business interests. While these corporations have no membership in any legislative body, they can often wield considerable power over law-makers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-corporatism-ruined-for-you/272146.md?page=3)