# What has happened to my SDMB ? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 3, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171 "2003-04-03T11:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![S.Mussberger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@S.Mussberger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/S.Mussberger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/21 "2003-04-03T17:56:17Z")
Arse kicking good OP! What you said… ---
**Author:** ![King\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7bcc69/32.png) [@King\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/22 "2003-04-03T18:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > \*\*No, **King Rat** , that wasn’t my point at all. The point was that these two people were talking _past_ each other, not _to_ each other. That’s why I used that quote as the subject of my post. The debate has become so polarized that neither side thinks the other has anything useful to say. Perhaps your response helped prove my point. \*\* I’m not so sure… The Peace Institute is the “good guy” who wants to understand the other side: O’Rourke: “I want to increase dialogue between people in the peace movement and people that are supporting troops because I myself see us as supporting the troops but perhaps in a different way…We’re the Peace Institute. We’re an educational institution and we are really interested in building bridges and building dialogue with people.” While the anti-antiwar guys are closed-minded: Erdolf: “We don’t want to be in a dialogue with you… We don’t want to discuss it necessarily with people.” ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/23 "2003-04-03T18:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by Coldfire > Let’s hope the SDMB regains its usual factual stance once this fucking war is over. That sounds much nicer than the usual shooting wars, cold wars, or even trade wars. Would a trade war over sex toys escalate into a fucking war? ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/24 "2003-04-03T18:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by Coldfire > Let’s hope the SDMB regains its usual factual stance once this fucking war is over. That sounds much nicer than the usual shooting wars, cold wars, or even trade wars. Would a trade war over sex toys escalate into a fucking war? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/25 "2003-04-03T18:27:36Z")
Thanks, vibrotraonica, that was the piece I referred to in [my thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=174514&pagenumber=1). However, I didn’t hear it the way you did. I heard and read it the way King Rat did. The “Support The Troops” gal was pretty much sticking her fingers in her ears and going “lalalalala I can’t hear you” ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/26 "2003-04-03T18:32:56Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s going on in GD and elsewhere on the board is just a symptom of a larger disease sweeping the nation. It’s very scary to me, and the fact that it has penetrated here is even scarier. Yeah. Never mind the SDMB; I wish I could make sense out of what’s happening to my _country_ nowadays. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/27 "2003-04-03T19:09:27Z")
With the amount of newcomers here, and the fact that merely posting something utterly devoid of fact and logic is not necessarily grounds for banning, I’m just happy there isn’t more of it. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/28 "2003-04-03T19:34:20Z")
**King Rat** and **Stoid** , I hear what you’re saying. I must admit that when I was driving home and heard that story on the radio, that was my first reaction. The pro-war looney was totally beyond talking to. But the more I turned it over in my mind, I started to think that the woman from the Peace Institute wasn’t without blame. She asks for a “dialouge,” which sounds like activist-speak. That immediately turns off the pro-war woman. She hears nothing and sees only a pinko communist from there on. Maybe if she said “I want to talk to you,” she would have had better luck. But the anti-war woman cannot think or speak outside of her own framework. She doesn’t really want to “engage in a dialouge,” she wants to argue her point. She’s not going to hear anything that the pro-war woman has to say except to think up a comeback. It was an eye opener for me. Neither the anti- nor the pro-war woman is evil. Both of them think they’re doing the right thing and because of that both of them think the other person is evil. The anti-war woman thinks she’s trying to reach out, and should probably be applauded for that. But for me, the whole thing was a lesson in how not to try and talk to the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/29 "2003-04-03T19:59:50Z")
Wait a fucking second. All of you people are appalled that dopers are speculating on an issue that the military itself has braught up? I did not participate in that thread. I did, however read it a bit. I did not see where it was instantly overflown with halfbaked theories and assertions that it was impossible that it was a fuckup. It is a fucking debate. You want “just the facts ma’am”? The fact is that it was reported that the troops followed SOP that if they didn’t “fuck up”, would have possibly gotten themselves and their buddies killed. The reports continued to say fucking warning shot was fired at the vehicle _after_ they were signaled to stop. Another shot was fired into the engine possibly in hopes of making them stop. Their orders are to fire at speeding vehicles that \*obviously \* refuse to stop. That is not a fuck up. That is the reported proper reaction to a fucked up situation. The reporter on the scene has a different story. One that puts the fuck up more on the troops because of the quote from the CO. If that doesn’t make it debate worthy, I don’t know what is. So now the SDMB has the gall to debate things your anti-war mind has already made up _despite_ the known evidence? If this is the way you want your SDMB to run you can fucking have it. Well said indeed. What is this message board coming to when people whine about the content of debates just because someone doesn’t agree… :rolleyes: I have been on record here that I personally do not want to debate the niceties of the war and the"fuckups" about the war. I do “live with it”. But this horseshit of what you decide is not debate worthy is beyond pathetic and deserves a rant in reply. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/30 "2003-04-03T20:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Some people, when they choose the side of debate, must take that side to extremes. Once they decide they are for the war, then every bad thing in Iraq that happens _must_ be the fault of Saddam. > > It’s similar to when people decide they are Democrat or Republican. When a person who happens to be of their same party is in office, that man is then a saint who cannot lie nor do anything wrong or corrupt. \*\* Well put. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/31 "2003-04-03T22:20:39Z")
**King Rat** , the piece is just a transcript of a dialog between two people. The value judgements are yours. Sounds like you’re blaming NPR, or **vibrotronica** , for your own spin. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/32 "2003-04-04T00:31:37Z")
A couple things: 1. To the OP, if you are going to open a pit thread about a certain GD thread, you might drop a line in there to let people know you are attacking them, unless you would prefer to hide out here and not deal with them directly. Based on the poor reasoning ability demonstrated in your post, I suppose I should not be surprised to see you have chosen the latter. 2. I don’t know where that Koran comment came from, it was irrelevant to the discussion, and was dismissed as such. 3. I wasn’t aware that GD was an exclusively fact based forum, I suppose that all future debates on religion, philosophy etc. should be removed to the IMHO forum since often times they are based more on opinion than fact. Perhaps we should do away with GD all together, since clearly every question will either have a factual answer (GQ) or is going to involve some speculation and opinion. (IMHO) 4. The inquiry in that thread, as I explained multiple times, was a perfectly valid one, and completely divorced from the war in general. No one in the thread ever said that mistakes don’t happen, or that innocent civilians don’t get killed. No one ever said the coalition was flawless; I challenge you to provide a quote that even comes close to that assertion. The scope of the inquiry was limited simply to this: Is it possible that the van incident was deliberately staged in order to make the coalition forces look bad? Several posters were willing to agree that, especially in light of the tactics which have been reported in other parts of the country, it was possible, some even said likely, that the answer was yes. Other posters disagreed, and a polite discussion was had. That is, in fact, the purpose of the GD forum. Eventually the crusading anti-war idiots descended, like the vultures they are, from their lofty towers and began to throw their “evil imperialist” clichés in to the mix, for example we had **KhaosGod** who offered this contribution: > [@](#): > > One of the (british) survivors of friendly american fire said on TV (about US pilots): “They have no respect for human lfe” as proof that the coalition wants to “Kill 'em all.” Later, **RedFurry** left whatever piece of carrion he was gnawing on, and offered us this insight: > [@](#): > > The OP is just proof-positive that some of you will go to any lenght to “justify” this murderous and inmoral invasion. What you’re doing here is repulsive. > > So far, all your pre-emptive BS has done, along with killing counteless innocents such as these, is fan the flames of hatred of over one billion Muslims while confirming their worse fears about you. Those that weren’t radical before, are well on their way now… > > Congratulations. There’s something to be proud of. Clearly, what is on ole **Red’s** mind is debate. Of course, the thread was full of speculation, from both sides. I recognized this when I said: > [@](#): > > I know that treads dangerously close to the lack of evidence proving the conspiracy reasoning that we all hate around here, but I don’t think your points refute the claim either. But for you to post this: > [@](#): > > To the hawks - you know who you are - just this: There will be worse mistakes than this one - there probably already has been. If you can’t stomach the thought of US troops killing civilians by mistake, then you have no business supporting this or any war. > It was a given that this - or something like this - would happen. If you can’t handle that - if you have to think up convoluted explanations to blame the victims - then you’ve no business advocating war. You got your war. Now live with it. just boggles the mind. Have you completely missed the content of the “hawks’” posts in the other thread? Do the “doves” deny that Saddam has used civilians as human shields? Do the doves deny that Saddam’s troops have used schools and hospitals as military bases? Do the doves deny that Saddam’s troops have staged fake surrenders? Do the doves deny that suicide bombers have attached checkpoints? I wouldn’t accuse the doves of being so stupid, so why must it be that if I am a Hawk, (which I really am not) that I believe that mistakes don’t happen? What possibly makes you think that I can’t “handle” the idea that civilians would be killed? In short, pull your inflated head out of your ass and try to read the words in front of you before you go off on what I can, or can’t, handle. Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/33 "2003-04-04T01:33:47Z")
I totally agree with the OP. When I read just the title of the thread the OP mentioned, I was disgusted. It seemed to me like some people just couldn’t seem to believe that accidents can happen. No, it has to be our dastardly enemy which made us kill those Iraqis. It didn’t seem to be a legitimate question, it seemed to be a knee-jerk response. When I read the content, it amazed me that so many people could ignore Occam’s Razor, and go ahead with their little theories based on very uninformed speculation. It was a low moment for the SMDB. to **Rhum Runner** > [@](#): > > 1. The inquiry in that thread, as I explained multiple times, was a perfectly valid one, and completely divorced from the war in general. First of all, it wasn’t valid, it was mindless speculation based on no facts and flawed reasons. Not only that it seemed very inconsiderate to jump to such conclusions about a carload of women and children who died. > [@](#): > > No one in the thread ever said that mistakes don?t happen, or that innocent civilians don?t get killed. No one ever said the coalition was flawless; I challenge you to provide a quote that even comes close to that assertion. They don’t have to say it, they assumed it. Otherwise they never would have thought up these rationalizations. > [@](#): > > The scope of the inquiry was limited simply to this: Is it possible that the van incident was deliberately staged in order to make the coalition forces look bad? Several posters were willing to agree that, especially in light of the tactics which have been reported in other parts of the country, it was possible, some even said likely, that the answer was yes. Other posters disagreed, and a polite discussion was had. Yes it was a very polite discussion. That’s part of what upset me. No one said in the first few posts, “hey wait a sec, you are way out of line”. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/34 "2003-04-04T01:41:28Z")
> [@](#): > > First of all, it wasn’t valid, it was mindless speculation based on no facts and flawed reasons. Not only that it seemed very inconsiderate to jump to such conclusions about a carload of women and children who died. You know, you’re right. I mean, four days earlier there was a suicide bombing at a checkpoint, and we have found tanks being housed in hospitals, and munitions in schools. We know that Iraq has put their SAMS and radar cites in civilian areas, we know they have stored land mines in their Mosques. We know they have fired their mortars on civilians in Basra, and we know they have gassed civilians in the past. It is simply impossible to believe that they would orchestrate an attempt to get civilians killed. Impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/35 "2003-04-04T02:39:11Z")
Iraq has done some anti-civilian things, sure, but they haven’t actually sent civilians out to get gunned down by Americans. It’s possible that this could be some sort of Iraqi plot, but clearly much less likely than the straightforward explanation. So it’s totally in bad taste to try and say, essentially, “I wonder if we can blame this tragedy on the Iraqis?” ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/36 "2003-04-04T13:11:58Z")
For anyone still reading this, here is a [cite.](http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030403-26484762.htm) to a report on the possibility that the people that rushed the checkpoint were forced to do so. > [@](#): > > A respected Shi’ite Muslim cleric said suicide bombers — including women and children — are being forced into action by Saddam Hussein’s forces, which are threatening to kill family members if Iraqi civilians do not cooperate. > Imam Sayyid Mohammed Barkir said 13 women and children were ordered by the Fedayeen Saddam paramilitary fighters to carry out a suicide mission Monday by charging the checkpoint. > “Those people, children and women, those were put in the bus by Saddam Hussein’s forces and their men, being husbands and fathers, those were taken hostages. And the driver was ordered to speed up at the checkpoint and not stop so that they would be shot at,” Imam Barkir told the Fox News Network. You all can take issue with the validity of the cite, but surely we have seen many positions defended and debated based on far less evidence than what has been shown in that thread. **Spiny Norman** , can I expect a response from you? Or are you going to go slither off like the piece of phlegm you are and start another thread in some dark corner where you can cry about “your message board” rather than address the issue, and the posters, directly? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/37 "2003-04-04T15:15:19Z")
Well, gee, **Rhum Runner** , does it perhaps seem plausible that the esteemed **mr Norman** is currently otherwise occupied, and has not yet found the time to respond? Does the mere fact that it takes him a while to respond make him a “piece of phlegm”, as you so eloquently put it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/38 "2003-04-04T15:51:15Z")
I think the war has just made everybody cranky. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/39 "2003-04-04T16:08:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Well, gee, **Rhum Runner** , does it perhaps seem plausible that the esteemed **mr Norman** is currently otherwise occupied, and has not yet found the time to respond? Does the mere fact that it takes him a while to respond make him a “piece of phlegm”, as you so eloquently put it? \*\* Well, IMHO he’s a piece of phlegm for starting this thread and not posting a link in the other, so when I wondered whether or not a response would be forthcoming, it was more a comment on that than on the timeliness of his posting. I am happy to wait. Anyway, for those of you who care, there was another suicide attack this morning, this one involving [a pregnant woman.](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/04/sprj.irq.car.bomb/index.html) > [@](#): > > A woman, who appeared to be pregnant, got out of the car and began “screaming in fear” at the checkpoint, about 11 miles (18 km) southwest of the Hadithah Dam in Iraq, a Central Command statement said. > > Three coalition troops walked toward the car and it blew up, U.S. Central Command spokesman Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said, citing initial reports. > > Three coalition members were killed, along with the woman and the driver of the car. > > “She was killed by an explosion from the vehicle,” Brooks said. > > Whether the woman was a knowing participant in the attack remains unknown, but Brooks said Iraqis have used civilians in terror attacks in the past. > > “We have seen a number of examples that provide us clear evidence that this regime will take civilians and will take women, will take children and use them to lead an attack,” Brooks told reporters. > > “Whether this one was coerced or not, it’s now impossible to say. She clearly exited the vehicle in distress and she clearly showed signs of being pregnant,” he said. Anyone want to retract their poor taste comments yet? ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171/40 "2003-04-04T16:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I think the war has just made everybody cranky. \*\* Agreed. This “moral outrage” I see here seems to have far to do with the fear that people might be somehow justifying the actions of those soldiers, and that that somehow devalues the lives of those who died. _Well guess what, I call bullshit_. I already believe the soldiers were justified regardless of whether the people in the van were under duress or confused. Sure many things could have been done to prevent the van from even having the opportunity to rush the checkpoint but it doesn’t change the reality of war that gave them no choice at that point in time. Seriously, get over yourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-happened-to-my-sdmb/166171.md?page=3)